EASTERN DISTRICT OF VIRGINIA
                                       Alexandria Division

                  UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,           )
                                         Plaintiff,   )
                        v.                            )    CRIMINAL ACTION
                  STEVEN J. ROSEN,                    )    1:05 CR 225
                  KEITH WEISSMAN,                     )
                                         Defendants.  )

                                      REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPT

                                         MOTIONS HEARING

                                      Friday, March 24, 2006


                  BEFORE:       THE HONORABLE T.S. ELLIS, III

                                BY:  KEVIN DIGREGORY, AUSA
                                     NEIL HAMMERSTROM, AUSA
                                     THOMAS REILLY, SAUSA (DOJ)
                                     MICHAEL MARTIN, SAUSA (DOJ)

                                   For the Government


                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR
                                     Official Court Reporter
                               USDC, Eastern District of Virginia
                                       Alexandria, Virginia

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     APPEARANCES (Continued):

            2                  ABBE LOWELL, ESQ.
                               KEITH ROSEN, ESQ.
            3                  ERICA PAULSON, ESQ.

            4                     For Defendant Rosen

            5                  JOHN NASSIKAS, ESQ.
                               KARITHA BABU, ESQ.
            6                  KATE BRISCOE, ESQ.
                               BARUCH WEISS, ESQ.
                                  For Defendant Weissman

            9                                  ---

















                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                                 INDEX


            3     COURT QUESTIONS / ARGUMENT BY THE DEFENDANT             10

            4     COURT QUESTIONS / ARGUMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT            36

            5     COURT QUESTIONS / ARGUMENT BY THE DEFENDANT             77

            6           (Further submissions requested)

            7     PARTIAL RULINGS BY THE COURT ON OTHER MOTIONS           86

            8     COURT QUESTIONS / ARGUMENT BY THE DEFENDANT             91

            9     COURT QUESTIONS / ARGUMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT            94

           10     FURTHER PARTIAL RULINGS BY THE COURT                    97


           12           (Court recessed)













                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                              PROCEEDINGS


            3                  (Court called to order at 1:22 p.m. in USA v.

            4     Rosen, Weissman)

            5                  THE COURT:  Good afternoon.

            6                  You may call the next matter.

            7                  THE CLERK:  1:05 Criminal 225, United States

            8     versus Steven J. Rosen and Keith Weissman.

            9                  Would counsel please note your appearances?

           10                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Good afternoon, your

           11     Honor.  Kevin DiGregory and Neil Hammerstrom, assistant

           12     United States attorneys, and Thomas Reilly and Michael

           13     Martin, trial attorneys with the Counterespionage Section of

           14     the United States Department of Justice, Criminal Division,

           15     on behalf of the United States.

           16                  THE COURT:  All right.  Good afternoon.

           17                  And for the Defendant Weissman -- or Rosen, I'm

           18     sorry.  Let's do it -- I had forgotten which order they're

           19     in.

           20                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Good afternoon, your Honor.

           21     Abbe Lowell --

           22                  THE COURT:  Yes, Mr. Lowell.

           23                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- Keith Rosen and Erica

           24     Paulson from Chadbourne and Parke on behalf of Steven Rosen,

           25     who's --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  All right.

            2                  And for Mr. Weissman?

            3                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  Yes, your Honor.

            4                  THE COURT:  Mr. Nassikas, you can stay there

            5     for now.

            6                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  Thank you, your Honor.

            7     It's John Nassikas along with Karitha Babu and Marcia

            8     Durkin, Kate Briscoe, your Honor.  And also, a new cocounsel

            9     to the case, assuming the Court is willing to grant pro hac

           10     vice --

           11                  THE COURT:  I've already done that.

           12                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  Thank you so much.

           13                  (Continuing) -- Baruch Weiss.

           14                  THE COURT:  Good afternoon.  We're glad to have

           15     you here.

           16                  Well, good afternoon to all of you again.  The

           17     delay in commencing was the morning docket took a little

           18     longer.

           19                  Now, I believe this hearing can proceed, as I

           20     envision it at the moment, entirely on the public record.

           21     And indeed, I would prefer that.  However, if at any time

           22     counsel or Ms. Gunning, who's here, think there is something

           23     about to be -- about to happen or said that's classified,

           24     just raise your hand and we'll consider that.

           25                  Now, let me have the court security officer --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     if you will turn on the Elmo.  And I'm going to put up on

            2     the Elmo, so that you will see it -- he'll have to pull up

            3     the computer here for you all.

            4                  No, the computer's in the front.  He'll do it

            5     all, I think.  He'll do it all.

            6                  And the only reason for this is, I have a list

            7     of some 14 motions, and I think that's the right number.

            8     But if it isn't, we'll have to -- it may not be.  And if so,

            9     I need to know what's to be added or subtracted.

           10                  Yes.

           11                  And those of you sitting in the courtroom will

           12     also be able to see this.

           13                  Now, if you will put this page on the Elmo.

           14                  All this does is list the motions and the

           15     docket numbers.

           16                  Do you have the page?

           17                  Hand this to the court security officer.  Thank

           18     you.

           19                  THE MARSHAL:  (Complied).

           20                  THE COURT:  All of this drama for the simple

           21     purpose of showing a list.  We have, indeed, become slaves

           22     to technology.

           23                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It doesn't seem to be

           24     working, your Honor.

           25                  THE COURT:  Of course.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  Call Lance and have him come up here, please.

            2                  I see one other -- (pause).

            3                  All right, well, he'll fix it right away.  I

            4     see some other persons in the courtroom who are courthouse

            5     team members.  Do any of you know how to use it?

            6                  (People indicating)

            7                  THE COURT:  That's all right.  Lance is on his

            8     way up.  He'll be able do deal with it.  Thank you, however.

            9                  All right.  I have 14.  And when he gets here,

           10     I'm sure what he'll do is what my wife often does when she

           11     comes up to repair some item of gadgetry that she likes and

           12     owns, and that I have to use occasionally and I can't get to

           13     work, she comes up and she shows me a plug or "on-off"

           14     switch or something complex like that -- and takes great

           15     pleasure in doing that, since she says she was an English

           16     major.

           17                  I try to soften that by saying, yes, you were

           18     Phi Beta Kappa and I wasn't.  That doesn't seem to lessen

           19     her glee in showing what she does.

           20                  Now Mr. Lowell's about to show me that he was

           21     Phi Beta Kappa.

           22                  Well, what I plan on do, while you're looking

           23     at that, is I plan to begin with argument on the motion to

           24     dismiss the superseding indictment, that argues that the --

           25     here he is.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  Oh, I see.  Now while you're here, Mr. Lowell

            2     has now proved himself adept at technology.  But we need to

            3     make it bigger.  Lance, can you make it bigger?

            4                  Well, that doesn't help much, because we don't

            5     get all 14 in.

            6                  I just need 1 through 14, is all I need.

            7                  One more.

            8                  That's it.  Okay.  Thank you.

            9                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  Your Honor, if you want us

           10     to be follow along should we move over by the screen?

           11                  THE COURT:  No, you can -- there should be a --

           12     yes, can you look at the screen.  But it's just a list and I

           13     just want you to begin with, I intend to begin with --

           14                  All right.  Let's leave it there now.

           15                  I intend to begin with the number, I guess it

           16     would be number five.  I believe that's the one.  It is the

           17     motion that -- the docket numbers are next to it, the motion

           18     that argues that the statute is unconstitutional facially

           19     and as applied on a variety of grounds, including whether it

           20     ought to be limited to documents rather than oral, and so

           21     forth and so on.

           22                  Now, I don't need to hear defense arguments

           23     twice.  Do you have a designated hitter as to some of these

           24     arguments?

           25                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  We do, your Honor.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  All right.  Who might he be?

            2                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  With the Court's permission,

            3     I was going to start by seeing if I could tie this list

            4     together in a two- to four-minute introduction, and then

            5     proceed on the same motion that you have just indicated that

            6     you would like to hear first.

            7                  THE COURT:  All right.

            8                  Are there any motions goes that are at issue

            9     today other than those that I have listed here?

           10                  Let me ask Mr. DiGregory first.

           11                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  No, your Honor, I don't

           12     believe so.

           13                  THE COURT:  All right.

           14                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Your Honor, if I could ask

           15     the Court to further explain what item number eight is, as

           16     distinct from number five.

           17                  THE COURT:  It's Docket 157.  And Docket 157, I

           18     think Docket 157 is, in fact, the motion to dismiss the

           19     indictment on the -- well, let me see.

           20                  In any event, the docket numbers reflect that.

           21     And I have a list, but it doesn't have the docket numbers on

           22     it.

           23                  Go ahead, Mr. Lowell.  I take it you don't have

           24     any that are not listed here.  You simply see one that may

           25     be duplicate.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  With your indulgence, your

            2     Honor, let me just check with my cocounsels.

            3                  THE COURT:  157 was actually an under seal.

            4     Number eight is the major motion that I want you to address.

            5                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Number eight --

            6                  THE COURT:  And five, six and seven go

            7     together.  Five, six and seven go together -- four, five and

            8     six, I'm sorry; four, five and six.  And obviously, the jury

            9     selection process is different.

           10                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Your Honor, I believe that

           11     there are some discovery related motions having to do with

           12     requests to unseal some of the FISA related material, and

           13     some of the back and forth on CIPA which are not represented

           14     on this.  But I didn't expect them to be.

           15                  THE COURT:  Well, those CIPA motions, I'll take

           16     that up at a different time.

           17                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  I didn't expect those.

           18                  But from what I can tell, I believe you have a

           19     thorough list, even more thorough than we even have at the

           20     moment.

           21                  THE COURT:  Let's proceed, then.  Go ahead with

           22     your precis, but let's get as promptly as we can to the

           23     motion.

           24                       ARGUMENT BY THE DEFENDANTS

           25                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Thank you, your Honor.  I

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     will do that.  But I do think it might help if I can try to

            2     open the umbrella that, how these various motions on your

            3     list can tie together in some way.

            4                  What we're going to do is only spend the time

            5     you've graciously given us to highlight some aspects of each

            6     motion, because you've said you don't want to hear it twice.

            7     We've written it to you.  So we'll just try to get to the

            8     point --

            9                  THE COURT:  Well, actually, I've read the

           10     motions.  I don't need to be told anything about the jury

           11     selection or anything of that sort.  It really is important

           12     for me to hear this motion to dismiss.  So as a concession

           13     to the shortness of life, I think we ought to proceed to

           14     that.

           15                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Which is what I was intending

           16     to do.

           17                  THE COURT:  All right.

           18                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  We have filed and the

           19     defendants have moved to dismiss the entire indictment on

           20     the basis of constitutional defects that riddle the

           21     superseding indictment.

           22                  As we did in our papers, we framed this

           23     request, your Honor, to dismiss on these defects, by a

           24     number of statements and legal precedence among those that

           25     we thought worth repeating again was to point the Court and

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     the prosecutors to the statement of one of their brother

            2     prosecutors, and that was Special Prosecutor Patrick

            3     Fitzgerald, who was appointed, as the Court knows, for the

            4     single purpose --

            5                  THE COURT:  I'm really not much interested in

            6     what other prosecutor says, if he disagrees with these.

            7     That's not very authoritative.  It really doesn't matter to

            8     me.

            9                  I'm sure we can go out and do a poll of

           10     lawyers, prosecutors and others and get a variety of views,

           11     none of which are really of any interest to me.  But there

           12     were a lot things in your brief that were of interest to me.

           13     That wasn't one of them.

           14                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Guessing ahead to the first

           15     thing that might be, would be, let me state the facts that

           16     we believe this prosecution as applied, so that we're

           17     operating from the same vocabulary.

           18                  THE COURT:  You also make a facial claim, as

           19     you're entitled to, because of the First Amendment aspects

           20     to it.  I understand that.

           21                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Because of --

           22                  THE COURT:  But let's take the "as applied."

           23                  The first thing you focus on is information

           24     relating to national defense, that you say is

           25     unconstitutionally vague in the context of verbal

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     information; is that right?

            2                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Yes, your Honor.  If you look

            3     at the statute and you focus first on the words, and then,

            4     if you would, I would give you a very brief recitation of

            5     the facts as applied that make it unconstitutional.

            6                  THE COURT:  All right.

            7                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  You have the following

            8     phrases.  You have in the statute the phrase, "whoever."

            9     You have the phrase, "unauthorized possession."  You have in

           10     the phrase -- I'm sorry -- in the statute, the phrase

           11     "information."

           12                  You have in the statute, the further phrase

           13     "relating to the national" -- I'm sorry -- "relating to."

           14     You have in the statute the phrase, "national defense."  You

           15     have in the statute the phrase, "reason to believe," could

           16     be used to the, quote, "injury of the United States or to

           17     the advantage of a foreign nation," and then you have the

           18     willfulness standard set out.

           19                  You have, therefore, the retransmittal words of

           20     "to any person not entitled to receive it."

           21                  And then you have the disjunctive, "or,"

           22     "willfully retaining the same and failing to deliver it."

           23                  Now, there have been challenges to those words

           24     in other cases, but there has never been a challenge to

           25     those words in other cases where those words are being

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     overlaid against the following conduct, and that is conduct

            2     by nongovernment official defendants engaged in the normal

            3     part of their job, of First Amendment-protected lobbying

            4     activity to petition the government, meeting with government

            5     officials in the normal course of the government officials

            6     doing their jobs, seeking or offering nothing improper in

            7     return for these normal conversations, discussing foreign

            8     policy issues with these government officials, neither

            9     seeking nor receiving tangible documents, getting nothing

           10     with clear markings indicating any national defense or

           11     classification status, and then using the information they

           12     obtained in the normal and regular course of their jobs,

           13     talking to colleagues in their foreign policy First

           14     Amendment-protected organization, cross-referencing the

           15     information with journalists --

           16                  THE COURT:  Let's assume for a moment that

           17     somebody in the Defense Department, who was not in sympathy

           18     with Administration policy, had information that American

           19     troops were going to go in and -- some country and extract

           20     somebody or do something.  And this person in the Defense

           21     Department thought that was not the right thing to do,

           22     called up lobbyists for that country or for a related

           23     country, and told them about it.  Would that violate 739, or

           24     7- --

           25                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  793.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  -- 793?

            2                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  The government official in

            3     your hypothetical could certainly be prosecuted under

            4     793(d).

            5                  THE COURT:  All right.

            6                  And it wouldn't unconstitutionally vague as to

            7     him.

            8                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  In the hypothetical that

            9     you're saying, it would not be.  Because --

           10                  THE COURT:  All right --

           11                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- I'm assuming --

           12                  THE COURT:  -- now let's suppose that instead

           13     of him calling a lobbyist -- or let's suppose that the

           14     lobbyist then passed this information on about these troop

           15     movements.  Would the lobbyist violate 793?

           16                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Not in the facts that you've

           17     just provided.  There would have to be a lot more to make

           18     those phrases.

           19                  THE COURT:  What if this person is told, "This

           20     is top secret stuff I'm telling you, but the troops are

           21     going to do this and do that," and then he passes it on.

           22     Does he violate 793?

           23                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  If in your hypothetical

           24     you're saying that the government official gave the

           25     listener, orally, something which he could define so that

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     the listener was aware of what precisely was the national

            2     defense information, i.e., "The troops will be landing on

            3     February 5th" --

            4                  THE COURT:  No, not landing on a specific date;

            5     make it that there is a planned troop movement.

            6                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Okay.  Keep it as just if

            7     there was a linkage between the statement, "I am about to

            8     tell you something that is" -- and use your hypothetical,

            9     "classified.  There is a plan for troops to arrive at some

           10     future date."

           11                  And if that all that were happening at that

           12     moment, it is still not possible to prosecute the listener

           13     under the statute as it is defined.

           14                  THE COURT:  Why?

           15                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Five reasons.

           16                  Reason number one is that, to begin with, this

           17     statute and this section of the statute is sought to be

           18     applied to the kind of information that we are just not

           19     convinced, unless you tell me -- and your hypothetical might

           20     be -- that the individual was, in person, reading from a

           21     document, the document was clearly that which he says it was

           22     to be, classified, the listener knew that that was the case,

           23     and could identify the piece of information that was so

           24     classified.

           25                  All the other items in the statute, your Honor,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     speak in terms of tangible items.

            2                  Second, if the listener hears somebody saying,

            3     "it's classified," and doesn't know --

            4                  THE COURT:  (Inaudible - microphone not yet

            5     activated due to simultaneous speaking)

            6                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- what is classified --

            7                  THE COURT:  -- you are mixing up two things.

            8     You are now construing the statute to include only

            9     documentary materials.

           10                  I'm not construing the statute.  I'm giving you

           11     a factual hypothetical and asking you whether that

           12     constitutionally could be prosecuted under 739, assuming

           13     that it isn't limited, as no case has yet limited it, to

           14     documents.

           15                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  No case has limited it to

           16     documents, and no case has authorized it for the kind of

           17     oral conversations about which the government has brought

           18     these charges.

           19                  THE COURT:  All right.

           20                  I understand that's your position.

           21                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Okay.

           22                  THE COURT:  But Without being argumentative,

           23     answer my question.

           24                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  The answer to your question

           25     is the second -- the third reason why you could not

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     prosecute under the hypothetical, as you have provided it,

            2     is that you have used the word of a government official says

            3     it's classified.

            4                  We talk in this case about the word

            5     "classified."

            6                  The statute talks about information related to

            7     the national defense.  As it turns out, not all classified

            8     information is information related to the national defense.

            9     And not all information related to the national defense is

           10     classified.

           11                  So, a government official, in --

           12                  THE COURT:  You think --

           13                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- towing the --

           14                  THE COURT:  -- troop movement would not be, in

           15     your view, a national defense information?

           16                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  It certainly could be.  And

           17     if --

           18                  THE COURT:  (Inaudible - microphone not yet

           19     activated due to simultaneous speaking)

           20                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- it was --

           21                  THE COURT:  -- and in the other cases, clearly,

           22     the Supreme Court has said:  Naval installations, troop

           23     movements.  And that's what I have just given you.

           24                  There is no doubt that a troop movement is

           25     precisely the kind of information since what, 60 years,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     that's been understood to be included in the kind of

            2     information that can't be bandied about.

            3                  I wanted to avoid all of this.  You see, we're

            4     going to get to the nub of this matter, but you seem to be

            5     stopping too early --

            6                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Well, I'm sorry.  I can't --

            7                  THE COURT:  -- and that --

            8                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- I can't proceed to accept

            9     the premise that a phrase --

           10                  THE COURT:  All right.  Well --

           11                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- that says --

           12                  THE COURT:  -- I will ask you to accept it,

           13     because you lose on that.  Now let's move on in the

           14     hypothetical.

           15                  National defense information does include troop

           16     movements.

           17                  What else in there would preclude prosecution,

           18     other than that?

           19                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  If that is clearly national

           20     defense information that is orally provided, you have not

           21     told me why -- and we have not discussed -- why, to begin

           22     with, the person listening to somebody he believes is in

           23     charge of providing information that he is allowed to hear,

           24     is an unauthorized person.

           25                  Just because he intones the word "classified,"

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     what we now know, and we know it --

            2                  THE COURT:  All right.

            3                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- in spades --

            4                  THE COURT:  Well, the hypothetical is that he

            5     called somebody outside the government he knows not to be

            6     cleared.

            7                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  You're saying that when a

            8     person outside the government hears a piece of information

            9     that may relate to national defense information, that alone

           10     makes that person an unauthorized person.  When the

           11     government purposely leaks information of that nature to

           12     nongovernment officials every day --

           13                  THE COURT:  Well, that's --

           14                  (Simultaneous speaking)

           15                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- how does that --

           16                  THE COURT:  -- that's --

           17                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- person know --

           18                  THE COURT:  -- I think, a point that you have

           19     made, and it's an important point.  But it sort of really

           20     begs the constitutional question.

           21                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Well --

           22                  THE COURT:  In any event, I understand that

           23     point.

           24                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  If a --

           25                  THE COURT:  I understand that you think it's

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     unfair that these folks have been singled out when

            2     back-channel leaks and that sort of thing happen every day.

            3     I understand that.

            4                  But that's not a fact that is necessarily -- or

            5     that's not a fact that's appropriate to the strict

            6     constitutional analysis.  It may have something to do with

            7     the fundamental fairness of the prosecution.

            8                  And it also, I think relates, to some extent --

            9     it's clear that you want to point out that the government

           10     does that, and that may well be a defense.  I'll have to

           11     look at that.  You certainly have subpoenaed a number of

           12     people with that in mind.

           13                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  There's an --

           14                  THE COURT:  Or you sought to subpoena a number

           15     of people with that in mind.

           16                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  There's an overlap on the

           17     constitutional requirement of fair notice, your Honor, to

           18     put a defendant in a position to clearly know when his

           19     conduct crosses the line.

           20                  And if a person has an experience of a

           21     lifetime, participating with government officials who tell

           22     them the exact same quality of information, and one day the

           23     government stops the music and says, "Now you've crossed the

           24     line," when that has not been the experience for decades, it

           25     has -- more than our defense, it has to do with one of the

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     areas of vagueness and overbreadth and lack of fair notice

            2     in the front end of the statute.

            3                  THE COURT:  All right.

            4                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  But having --

            5                  THE COURT:  Why don't you go ahead, then --

            6     forget the hypothetical.  Complete your argument, and then

            7     I'll hear from the government.

            8                  Go ahead.  Complete your argument on the

            9     statute.

           10                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Then to take the next phrase

           11     that you and I have discussed, the issue of whether or not

           12     the path relates to the national defense, "has reason to

           13     believe it could injure the United States," that phrase.

           14                  There's a disjunctive, your Honor.  The

           15     disjunctive says "injure the United States or assist or

           16     benefit the advantage of a foreign country."

           17                  How can anybody apply that in a context in

           18     which good foreign policy for the United States, that

           19     clearly is intended to help make the United States' foreign

           20     policy better, may also have a derivative impact that makes

           21     it an advantage to an ally of the United States, whose

           22     interest are exactly the same?

           23                  By being able to criminalize both halves of

           24     that equation of the disjunctive, a person is still not put

           25     on proper notice that his conduct crosses the line in such a

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     way that he can control that conduct to conform to a clearly

            2     stated prescription on what is and is not allowed in the

            3     very context of foreign policy debate.

            4                  And then lastly, when a person is saying that

            5     he is not in a position to willfully pass that information

            6     on, to get to the next part of the statute, what does that

            7     mean in a context in which government officials routinely

            8     seek the input from the very men that are on trial here to

            9     get their view on foreign policy issues, not to make them

           10     better informed when they go home at night and have better

           11     dinner conversations with their children and spouse, but to

           12     do exactly what these men are accused of doing, which is to

           13     go back and talk to their colleagues, to test what they have

           14     just heard among others with knowledge, and to, together,

           15     find out whether the information is valid or invalid?

           16                  How can it possibly be that you can apply those

           17     words to the conduct of these men, in a constitutionally

           18     sound fair notice fashion, if they are supposed to do

           19     exactly what they are asked to be doing?

           20                  It is not simply that we are arguing there's no

           21     set of circumstances in which the passing of oral

           22     information could not be a violation.  That's not what we're

           23     saying.

           24                  I mean, if somebody were reading from a

           25     classified information document that was national defense,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     and the individual knew that, and also knew that the person

            2     wasn't authorized to declassify it right --

            3                  THE COURT:  (Inaudible - microphone not yet

            4     activated due to simultaneous speaking).

            5                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- at that --

            6                  THE COURT:  -- have to be reading from

            7     something to know that you know about a troop movement or

            8     you know about a particular bomb location?

            9                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  No.

           10                  THE COURT:  Of course not.

           11                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  No.  Of course not.

           12                  But, if, in this case, hypothetically speaking,

           13     the government's cooperator was engaged in conversations

           14     with any of these people about whether or not we had a

           15     foreign policy dispute with the Government of Iran, and the

           16     subject was, "Should we get tougher on Iran or not tougher

           17     on Iran," I can dare say that that kind of statement, in its

           18     own context, does not provide any sufficient basis to know

           19     that there's a dispute about whether to get tough on Iran,

           20     whether we should support or not support change of the

           21     regime, whether that is or is not --

           22                  ATTORNEY REILLY:  Your Honor, I have to object

           23     at this point.

           24                  THE COURT:  Yes, I understand.

           25                  ATTORNEY REILLY:  This hypothetical has gone

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     way too far.

            2                  THE COURT:  I think so.

            3                  ATTORNEY REILLY:  It's still a hypothetical?

            4                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  It is that.

            5                  (Continuing) -- or any such foreign policy

            6     debate is not in the nature of troop movement.

            7                  If you can apply this statute to conversations

            8     equally as to whether they involve troop movements, or very

            9     much the issue of troops, on one hand, and whether the

           10     United States should take some kind of policy against a

           11     country at a much more general basis on another hand, you

           12     have then seen the problem with applying these words to the

           13     conduct as applied in this case.

           14                  So, to summarize the parsing of the statute,

           15     you do have the issue in our view, your Honor, of the

           16     unauthorized nature, the issue of what does relate to

           17     national defense.

           18                  You know, General Counsel Anthony Lapham of the

           19     CIA, when approaching this statute for purposes of telling

           20     Congress whether or not there was a law that does or does

           21     not apply to the very conduct in this case, as we put in our

           22     papers, said:

           23                      This is a vague statute that does not apply

           24               clearly to this issue.  Because "relate to

           25               national defense" could cover everything from the

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1               most secret plans of the government, i.e., troop

            2               movements, to the daily stock exchange numbers

            3               which are talked about among government agencies.

            4                  And therein lies the problem.  When you try to

            5     criminalize "relate to," "pertaining to," "information

            6     about."

            7                  Were that not bad enough, your Honor, this

            8     indictment takes it a step further.  If you understand that

            9     the government is supposed to charge information related to

           10     the national defense, they went a step further.

           11                  In the indictment, they say that these men

           12     engaged in conduct which was violative of the law because

           13     they spoke of matters about classified information.  They

           14     used the word "about" in the indictment.  That's not taken

           15     from the statute.  That's their own contraption.

           16                  Now, where does that provide these two people,

           17     or anybody listening, with sufficient notice that if troop

           18     movements is itself national defense information, and you

           19     talk to a government official about whether we will ever be

           20     in a position to move troops, you have violated 793.

           21                  And were that not bad enough, in terms of fair

           22     notice, vagueness and overbreadth, the government, in their

           23     superseding indictment, charges these men with violating the

           24     law because they were engaged in the interchange of, quote,

           25     "sensitive," end quote, information, including classified

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     information, is the charge in the indictment.

            2                  Now, we've removed from "related to national

            3     defense information" to "information about," and now we've

            4     moved, about what?  Not national defense, not classified,

            5     but "sensitive information."

            6                  And therein lies the charges.  We didn't write

            7     them.  They wrote them.  And that doesn't provide fair

            8     notice under any standard to anybody that is trying to

            9     conform their conduct as the law requires in a criminal

           10     statute.

           11                  So, that's how I would parse the statute

           12     further in the exchange.

           13                  You don't know, your Honor, given the

           14     conduct -- what makes oral information difficult is because

           15     oral information, among other things, if a person says to

           16     you, "What I'm about to tell you is classified," and then

           17     talks for 40 minutes, clearly not all of what he just said

           18     in the remaining 40 minutes was classified.

           19                  In addition to which, even if he used the

           20     phrase of the statute, that it relates to national defense,

           21     if he actually portrayed it in that fashion, then how would

           22     the individual even know then whether he was talking about

           23     the front end, the middle end and the back end?

           24                  When you're dealing with a document, most of

           25     which in proper classification has paragraphs that, by

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     paragraph, or sometimes by sentence, detail what the level

            2     of classification is, you remove the ambiguity.  You remove

            3     the lack of fair notice.  You remove the possibility that a

            4     person who says something's classified is exaggerating, is

            5     trying to make himself heard more clearly, or is simply

            6     wrong.

            7                  And that's where the oral versus written

            8     information has particular meaning, and especially under the

            9     scrutiny that the First Amendment requires.  When these

           10     aren't being done in garages, where pockets of money are

           11     being exchanged, but in open, in foreign policy debates

           12     between government officials and First Amendment lobbyists

           13     in the mainstream of their job.

           14                  And that's why the distinction is very

           15     important in that regard, as well.

           16                  To make it further complicated, in terms of

           17     providing fair notice and being a constitutional violation,

           18     is the notion that if you could even stop the conversation

           19     at any point and be able to pinpoint what part was or was

           20     not, it doesn't make sense that what the government is

           21     criminalizing is a statute that says you're not supposed to

           22     take it improperly and pass it on, or, you're supposed to

           23     give it back when asked.

           24                  And how do you give back that what you heard,

           25     when what you heard is in now in your mind, and you get no

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     opportunity to remedy the problem that the statute provides

            2     most individuals the opportunity to do.

            3                  And that's why taking these words and applying

            4     it in this context would be wrong in any sense.

            5                  But when you try to apply it when the conduct

            6     is so imbued with our First Amendment values of petitioning

            7     the government, and when the activities go in the making,

            8     sausage-making as it may be, of foreign policy, it creates

            9     all kinds of notice issues.

           10                  THE COURT:  So these defendants got this

           11     information in order to petition the Congress in some way.

           12                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Or petition -- petition the

           13     Congress for sure.  You cannot count on a legal pad --

           14                  THE COURT:  (Inaudible - microphone not yet

           15     activated due to simultaneous speaking).

           16                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- the number --

           17                  THE COURT:  -- the evidence that they used that

           18     information for that purpose here?

           19                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  In this -- I can't get into

           20     details of all the things that the men on trial did with the

           21     information they had.  But it is certainly true --

           22                  THE COURT:  Well, I'm just asking you whether

           23     they took the information and petitioned Congress with it.

           24                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  This information, they did

           25     not petition the Congress, but they petitioned other people

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     in the Executive Branch.  The "petition the government" is

            2     petition the government.  That phrase is not "petitioning

            3     the United States Congress."  You are allowed to interface

            4     with State Department, the Department of Defense, the

            5     National Security Council, the Executive Branch, as well as

            6     the United States Congress.

            7                  And when information from one hand of the

            8     government is provided to these individuals, so that they

            9     are better informed, they are, in fact --

           10                  THE COURT:  Without answering fully, this

           11     question, is that all they did with the information, namely

           12     to petition the government?

           13                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  No.  But the -- no.  The

           14     allegations in the indictment are that they shared this

           15     information with journalists, and they also shared it with

           16     officials of a foreign country.

           17                  But that is in the process of petitioning the

           18     government.  This foreign policy organization, like so, so

           19     many others, don't just provide the United States Government

           20     with information that they obtained from their own heads.

           21     They search and they provide information from what they hear

           22     from journalists, what they hear from foreign officials who

           23     are allies, what they hear from others who have information

           24     on the same subject.  And the result is a better foreign

           25     policy of the United States.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  All right.

            2                  I think much of what you've said may suggest

            3     how, may go to the merits of writing another statute or a

            4     different statute.

            5                  Some of the points you make go to the heart of

            6     the issues you've raised.

            7                  Let met hear from the government on -- do you

            8     have anything else on the constitutionality?

            9                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Three more quick points,

           10     but --

           11                  THE COURT:  All right.

           12                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  I know you've read them, but

           13     let me make sure I say them out loud.  And it won't take but

           14     two more minutes.

           15                  The first is, I have addressed the vagueness

           16     and the overbreadth from a point of view of a neutral

           17     situation.  You know, and have stated yourself, that when

           18     you filter those words through the extra scrutiny the Court

           19     is supposed to apply in a First Amendment, it requires the

           20     most ability of the government to justify how their conduct

           21     to criminalize something meets with the robust debate that

           22     the First Amendment protects.

           23                  The government, in one of its briefs, sought to

           24     distinguish among the clauses of the First Amendment by

           25     saying:  Well, this would raise some novel issues if applied

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     to the press, but we don't have the press here.

            2                  The First Amendment does not so qualify freedom

            3     of speech, freedom of petitioning the government, and

            4     freedom of the press.  They are all on equal footing.  And

            5     so has the Supreme Court held.

            6                  So you can't say:  Well, this is constitutional

            7     as applied to lobbyists, but it wouldn't be constitutional

            8     if applied to journalists.

            9                  The next point is -- and we point the Court,

           10     because of the challenge both on its face and -- and the on

           11     its face statute, the request, goes because the Supreme

           12     Court decided the Bartnicki case between the time that this

           13     statute was scrutinized for First Amendment values and the

           14     present time.

           15                  And we think that adds impetus for the Court

           16     both on its face and as applied.  Because the analogy of the

           17     facts of that case, as you see, are by no means anything but

           18     a millimeter apart:  Improper, illegally-obtained

           19     information that was given to individuals in the middle, who

           20     passed it on to the press, and both were sued under the law

           21     for that passing on.

           22                  And the Supreme Court said:  It can't be done.

           23     It doesn't matter that the information was illegally

           24     disclosed to you in the first place.  Your passing it on is

           25     a protected activity in the context of the facts of that

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     case.

            2                  The First Amendment values, by these men

            3     working on foreign policy through their organization, APAC,

            4     is ten times stronger than any of the values of the union

            5     dispute in that particular matter in the Bartnicki case.

            6                  And lastly, on the constitutional grounds.

            7     When you have that vagueness and overbreadth, through the

            8     filter of the First Amendment, you end with the potential of

            9     what the Courts have also ruled is absolutely the protection

           10     that we have to insist on, which is that it gives the

           11     government too much power to be arbitrary in their selection

           12     of who is going to get applied these vague and imprecise

           13     terms.

           14                  And the arbitrariness is patent from the face

           15     of the indictment itself.  People think that this is a case

           16     about one individual that has been identified as Larry

           17     Franklin.  The indictment speaks of two other government

           18     officials, USGO1 and USGO2.  The indictment says that they,

           19     just like Larry Franklin, provided improper information to

           20     these two defendants, who did exactly the same with it as

           21     they are alleged to have done with Larry Franklin.

           22                  These two individuals, who are identified in

           23     the indictment, are not charged.  If you believe the press,

           24     who has identified them, they have been promoted in their

           25     jobs in the government.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  And it just shows you the anomaly of being able

            2     to either say that these men did something wrong and they

            3     get to continue in their jobs, including the most sensitive

            4     national defense information on the planet, in the most

            5     sensitive place on the planet, and these two men get

            6     prosecuted as felons for doing no more than they did with

            7     these two other government officials.

            8                  There may be good reason for that distinction,

            9     but it shows the arbitrariness that is allowed to occur when

           10     vague and imprecise terms are applied to conduct, especially

           11     conduct that doesn't -- that isn't viewed with the First

           12     Amendment.

           13                  And finally, we don't have to get there, your

           14     Honor.  And that's where I started before, but let me

           15     conclude.

           16                  There is no requirement that this is a statute

           17     that is supposed to, or was intended to, apply to the

           18     conduct that it is seeking to be applied to.

           19                  And I know you said that that is a different

           20     type of argument, but I conclude with it because we don't

           21     have to get to this constitutional confrontation.  It should

           22     have not -- it's not a coincidence that from 1917 to the

           23     present, there has never been such a prosecution.

           24                  It's not a coincidence that every time Congress

           25     has been given the chance to amend the statue to make it

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     clear that it's trying to get to people in the positions of

            2     Mr. Rosen and Mr. Weissman, they have refused to do so,

            3     except on one occasion in 2000, when the President of the

            4     United States vetoed the attempt to do so.  And that veto

            5     wasn't attempted to be overridden.

            6                  It's not a coincidence that the words of the

            7     statute speak in tangible items, and the conduct here is

            8     oral.

            9                  It's not a coincidence that there are other

           10     parts of the statute that speak in those terms, to apply it.

           11     And it's not a coincidence that this statute, which speaks

           12     in phrases like "related to," et cetera, stands next to a

           13     statute that the government could apply with no effect on

           14     their attempt to prosecute national security violations.

           15                  Because if you have somebody in your

           16     hypothetical that did what you said for the purposes that

           17     you said, then that person could be prosecuted under 794, or

           18     under some other statute, about his or on her status as a

           19     foreign agent.

           20                  That is the proper way to go about when you're

           21     saying that somebody's motives are as our hypothetical

           22     intended them to be.

           23                  But when they are simply the acts of these men,

           24     as recounted in the indictment, this is not the statute that

           25     should be applied.  We didn't have to get there.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  And so consequently, while it is noble for the

            2     government to try to protect secrets, and do so by going

            3     after those entrusted with the duty to do so, they take it

            4     an inch or a foot or a yard too far, and they do so in

            5     as-applied basis, they have gone too far.  And national

            6     security interests don't give them the right to vitiate

            7     other aspects of the Constitution that are of equal footing

            8     and equally important to the fair administration of justice.

            9                  THE COURT:  All right.

           10                  Mr. DiGregory.

           11                       ARGUMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT

           12                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  In the first instance,

           13     this case is not about the First Amendment.  These

           14     defendants are not members of the media --

           15                  THE COURT:  Well, it is --

           16                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- nor --

           17                  THE COURT:  -- about the First Amendment in the

           18     sense that they get, do they not, under well-settled law,

           19     they certainly get to argue about overbreadth, even though

           20     they may not prevail on "as applied," they get -- or they

           21     may.  But it's clear under the law that an overbreadth --

           22     overbroad statutes can chill protected speech of others.

           23     And therefore, the -- they get to argue both "as applied"

           24     and "overbreadth."

           25                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  And the key to what you

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     say, your Honor, is that a statute --

            2                  THE COURT:  That the statement is overbroad.

            3                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- is that it can chill --

            4     an overbroad statute can chill protected speech.

            5                  But what this case is about is not about

            6     protected speech.  It's not about the legitimate lobbying

            7     activities that these defendants may have engaged in, but

            8     it's about their agreeing with each other, and others, to

            9     violate criminal statutes of this country, most

           10     specifically, criminal statutes dealing with the disclosure

           11     of classified national defense information.  That speech is

           12     not protected.

           13                  And though they seek to rely on Bartnicki, the

           14     interests in Bartnicki weren't anywhere close to the

           15     interests of this case and the interests in the government

           16     in protecting the national security of this nation.

           17                  The interest in Bartnicki was the privacy

           18     interest of someone whose conversation, who was -- someone

           19     whose conversation was intercepted, who was engaging in a

           20     plot perhaps to hurt some officials who disagreed with the

           21     position that he took in a union dispute.  Bartnicki is

           22     inapposite to this case; doesn't apply.

           23                  THE COURT:  What do you say to the basic

           24     contention that "national defense information" is fatally

           25     vague?

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It's not fatally vague,

            2     your Honor.  And that was cleared up, I think, years ago in

            3     Goren, and in subsequent cases that have been brought

            4     before -- before this Court, in fact.  And it's a concept

            5     which is readily understandable, I think as the Court has

            6     pointed out earlier in its discussions with Mr. Lowell.

            7                  THE COURT:  Suppose there was top secret

            8     information floating around back in, let's say, 1957, having

            9     to do with our knowledge of what the Soviet Union was doing

           10     with Sputnik, was never declassified.  Somebody passes that

           11     on from the government today.  Is that national defense

           12     information?

           13                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  If it is not information

           14     related to our national preparedness, then, no, you Honor,

           15     it's not.

           16                  THE COURT:  The word "classified" doesn't

           17     appear in 793.

           18                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  No, it does not, sir.

           19                  THE COURT:  Well, what do you say to

           20     Mr. Lowell's argument that that term -- he ties it together

           21     with other terms, but I think that doesn't trouble me very

           22     much.  What troubles me is the term itself, "national

           23     defense information."

           24                  It's possible to see a core meaning for it,

           25     that it would clearly not trouble anybody, troop movements,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     military installations, information relating to code

            2     breaking ability of this country.  Those are the things that

            3     Goren and subsequent case have made clear are national

            4     defense information.

            5                  But what are the limits?  Where are the

            6     boundaries?

            7                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  There are limits, your

            8     Honor.

            9                  However, as was pointed out in Goren and

           10     subsequent cases, it is a very broad term, and it is a term

           11     which can be applied to anything related to our national

           12     preparedness.

           13                  THE COURT:  Well, I think your answer would be,

           14     in part, that "national defense information," that should be

           15     only an "as applied" attack, not as an "overbroad"?

           16                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Well -- yes.

           17                  THE COURT:  Well, but they're entitled to make

           18     the overbreadth argument, too.

           19                  Let's go on --

           20                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Well, if I may, your

           21     Honor --

           22                  THE COURT:  Yes.

           23                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- to continue to address

           24     your overbreadth argument, an argument was -- this was

           25     addressed, to some extent, in the Troung case.  And I want

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     to talk about the Troung case for another reason.

            2                  Mr. Lowell has alleged that the Troung case

            3     that was tried in this building by Justin Williams, your

            4     Honor, was a case in which a person who was not a United

            5     States citizen was prosecuted for several violations of the

            6     criminal code, including violations of conspiring to commit

            7     794(a) and (c) and violation of 793(e) and Subsection (2).

            8                  What Troung was about was a non-U.S. citizen

            9     who had a keen interest in the policy of the United States

           10     towards Vietnam, and a keen interest in the relationship

           11     between the United States and Vietnam.

           12                  Troung struck up a friendship with an employee

           13     of the United States Information Agency.  Troung collected,

           14     procured from that friend with the United States Information

           15     Agency, national defense information that he later passed on

           16     to someone who he believed was associated with the North

           17     Vietnamese Government's representatives at the Paris peace

           18     talks back in 1977, I believe it was.

           19                  That person, unbeknownst to him, was an FBI

           20     agent.  Troung tried to claim, in his arguments to the

           21     court, that --

           22                  THE COURT:  I don't think it would be '77.  Do

           23     you?

           24                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It might have been earlier

           25     about that.  But I thought the case said '77.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  You may be right.

            2                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I think it does say '77.

            3     But in --

            4                  THE COURT:  All right.  Go on.

            5                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- any event, your Honor.

            6                  But Troung was a case in which Troung tried to

            7     claim, he tried to claim that he should not, he should not

            8     be subjected to the same standards, if you will, as a

            9     government employee, in evaluating whether or not he was on

           10     notice and could have committed the offenses he was charged

           11     with.

           12                  Troung argues, says the court at page 919 --

           13     the cite to the case is 629 F. 2nd 908.

           14                  Troung argues that he cannot be bound by the

           15     classification system because he wasn't a government employ.

           16     He can't hide behind the civilian status when he encouraged

           17     the government employee to copy classified documents.

           18                  Now, I know there are not copies of classified

           19     documents here that we are talking about, your Honor, but we

           20     are talking about a case --

           21                  THE COURT:  Mr. Lowell --

           22                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- where the defendants --

           23                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Yes, sir.

           24                  THE COURT:  -- you must remain dispassionate.

           25     Grimaces, gesticulations are not to be tolerated.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Yes, sir.

            2                  THE COURT:  It's rude.  It interrupts the

            3     speaker, and it often has the opposite effect you might

            4     expect it to have.

            5                  So don't do it.  Remain dispassionate.

            6                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Yes, sir.

            7                  THE COURT:  I was never able to do it when I

            8     practiced, but I don't brook any exceptions now.  My

            9     perspective is different.

           10                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Thank you, your Honor.

           11     But I didn't even notice.

           12                  In any event, your Honor, Troung tried to

           13     suggest that because he wasn't a government employee, any --

           14     the statute shouldn't be applied to him because he couldn't

           15     have been able to understand the classification system.

           16                  I would suggest to the Court that Troung and

           17     other cases dealing with the concept of national information

           18     should be read by the Court as to suggest that they apply to

           19     these defendants.

           20                  THE COURT:  With respect to Mr. Lowell's point,

           21     he makes the point that:  Look, how can a person who is not

           22     told -- these people weren't told, "Don't pass this on."

           23     Indeed, they argue, and I think without -- or with some

           24     basis, that's the purpose they were given the information,

           25     is so that they would pass it on, and that it happens every

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     day in Washington.

            2                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Well, whether or not it

            3     happens every day in Washington is of no moment to us, your

            4     Honor.

            5                  THE COURT:  I think that's a fair comment, but

            6     nonetheless it's -- I think it goes by the word

            7     back-channel.

            8                  But in any event, what he asks is:  How are the

            9     defendants to know that they're not to pass it on?

           10                  And if the statute says that "the unauthorized

           11     possession of it," they can't pass it on, retention is

           12     illegal, too, isn't it?

           13                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It is.

           14                  THE COURT:  Well, what are they supposed to do,

           15     have a lobotomy?

           16                  How are they to get rid of the knowledge --

           17                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY -- Well, your Honor,

           18     retention --

           19                  THE COURT:  -- if it's orally --

           20                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- The re- --

           21                  THE COURT:  -- transmitted?

           22                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Your Honor, the

           23     retention -- the retention section of the statute is but one

           24     section of the statute.  And your Honor, as we argued in our

           25     pleading, we believe that the statute applies -- or the

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     statutes apply to the disclose- -- to oral disclosures of

            2     information.

            3                  The word "information" is not exclusive to

            4     words that are written down.  In fact, as we argued in our

            5     pleading, it would be absurd to suggest that someone could

            6     pass a document at a luncheon meeting, and yet not

            7     communicate information from that document by looking at it,

            8     reading it, and telling the person sitting across from the

            9     table what was in the document.

           10                  Nor, your Honor, to carry it a step further --

           11     it would also be absurd to suggest that someone who read the

           12     document, memorized the document or memorized parts of the

           13     document, and presented parts of that document and presented

           14     parts of that document to the person with whom he was having

           15     lunch, if that document contained classified information

           16     would not be prosecutable if that person later turned around

           17     and disclosed that information.

           18                  And to the points that he was making about how

           19     was the defendant to know, I would suggest to the Court that

           20     these questions are not questions to be addressed in the

           21     context of assessing the constitutionality of the statute,

           22     as applied to these defendants, but these are questions of

           23     fact for the jury to determine.

           24                  It will be for the jury to determine whether or

           25     not the defendants knew, knew that they entered into an

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     agreement, entered into an agreement to gather and

            2     disseminate classified information, or national defense

            3     information, and whether or not the information that they

            4     obtained was, indeed, national -- national defense

            5     information.

            6                  It will be up to the jury to make a

            7     determination about whether or not the persons to whom they

            8     passed on this information, once receiving it -- assuming

            9     that they knew it was national defense information -- were

           10     persons who were not entitled to receive it.

           11                  Those are questions of fact.  Those are not

           12     questions regarding the constitutionality of the statute as

           13     applied to these defendants.

           14                  THE COURT:  Suppose a government official calls

           15     up a lobbyist or a journalist and says, "Look, there's going

           16     to be a big story coming out of the Department of Defense

           17     this weekend."  Would that violate the statute?

           18                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  If a lobbyist or a

           19     journalist called up the Defense Department and asked the

           20     question --

           21                  THE COURT:  No, no.

           22                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I'm sorry.

           23                  THE COURT:  If a Defense Department person

           24     called up a lobbyist or a journalist and said, "Look,

           25     there's going to be a big story out of DOD this weekend."

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  That, in and of itself,

            2     doesn't seem to be anything that would violate the statute.

            3     There's nothing in your facts that suggests --

            4                  THE COURT:  (Inaudible - microphone not yet

            5     activated due to simultaneous speaking).

            6                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- that national defense

            7     is passed.

            8                  THE COURT:  -- Defense person says, "A big

            9     story is going to come out this weekend that relates to the

           10     Country X and military operations with respect to Country

           11     X."

           12                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It would depend upon the

           13     information.  And if the information was deemed by the

           14     persons owning that information, an intelligence agency, the

           15     Defense Department, the State Department, whoever generated

           16     the information, that it were national defense

           17     information --

           18                  THE COURT:  How can a --

           19                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- then perhaps --

           20                  THE COURT:  How can a defendant, a potential

           21     defendant, trying to decide whether or not he's stepping

           22     across the line, determine when -- what information is

           23     national defense information, and when it isn't?

           24                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It all depends upon the

           25     facts, your Honor.  It all depends upon the information that

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     is imparted to him, and what he can garner from that

            2     information.

            3                  And it also depends upon the practice of the

            4     individual --

            5                  THE COURT:  (Inaudible - microphone not yet

            6     activated due to simultaneous speaking).

            7                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- if he is engaged in --

            8                  THE COURT:  -- agree though, don't you -- you

            9     agree though, don't you, that the statute is required under

           10     due process to provide fair notice?

           11                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.

           12                  THE COURT:  So tell me why the term "national

           13     defense information" is sufficiently explicit to provide

           14     fair notice that if you traffic in that, you're are going to

           15     run afoul of 793?

           16                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  One of the things that the

           17     courts have said in discussing national defense information,

           18     and in discussing whether or not, as applied to anyone, that

           19     concept is impermissibly vague, they discussed the burden of

           20     proof upon the government and the scienter requirement that

           21     exists in the situate.

           22                  The statute requires that the person who has

           23     acquired and disseminated national defense information, act

           24     willfully; willful misconduct.

           25                  That scienter requirement, your Honor, saves

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     the statute from any, any, I would submit, any challenge as

            2     to the vagueness of the statute with regard to any of its

            3     elements, including the element of national defense

            4     information.

            5                  THE COURT:  What do you -- what do you say to

            6     Mr. Lowell's point that the First Amendment is implicated

            7     because these persons are seeking to petition the

            8     government, various aspects of it, with this information

            9     that was given to them by a government official for that

           10     purpose, presumably.  Why isn't that First Amendment

           11     protected activity?

           12                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I think that what

           13     Mr. Lowell is talking about, again, is a question of fact

           14     for the jury to determine.

           15                  What we have alleged in our indictment, your

           16     Honor, is not First Amendment protected activity.  What we

           17     have alleged is that these two men conspired with persons,

           18     known and unknown, they conspired to gather and disseminate

           19     national defense information.  And we have alleged that they

           20     have done so, and communicated that information to persons

           21     not entitled to receive it.

           22                  THE COURT:  All right.  I know what you've

           23     alleged.

           24                  Is it right that in construing the

           25     constitutionality of this statute -- what do you think the

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     standard is?

            2                  Does it have to be narrowly tailored?

            3                  Is it strict scrutiny.

            4                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I don't think it's strict

            5     scrutiny, your Honor.

            6                  THE COURT:  Well, what is the standard you

            7     think applies to assessing the constitutional validity of

            8     this statute?

            9                  (Pause)

           10                  THE COURT:  Why isn't it subject to strict

           11     scrutiny, in other words?

           12                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  May I have a moment, your

           13     Honor?

           14                  THE COURT:  Yes.

           15                  (Counsel conferring)

           16                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Your Honor, we believe the

           17     United States versus Goren addresses this issue.  I'm trying

           18     to find a particular passage in the case that does so.

           19                  But in short, we're not talking about protected

           20     speech in this case.  What we're talking about is conduct,

           21     not speech.

           22                  Therefore --

           23                  THE COURT:  Does it make any difference to you

           24     if, instead of these defendants, it had been reporters for

           25     the Washington Post and the Washington Times?

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Interesting question, your

            2     Honor.  And I think that, as we said in our pleading --

            3                  THE COURT:  Isn't that the Pentagon Papers?

            4                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Well, no, that's not

            5     Pentagon Papers, your Honor.  And it's not, because Pentagon

            6     Papers was a case about prior restraint.  It's not a case

            7     about criminal prosecution.

            8                  THE COURT:  All right.  Go on.  Forget the

            9     Pentagon Papers' reference.  You're correct.  It was about

           10     prior restraint.

           11                  But nonetheless, what's the answer to my

           12     hypothetical?  Suppose these two defendants had been

           13     reporters for a newspaper.

           14                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It all depends, your

           15     Honor, on what the facts are in any given situation.

           16                  But as we said in our pleading, we would have

           17     to carefully scrutinize whether or not, whether or not there

           18     was -- because of the media being involved, we would have to

           19     carefully scrutinize whether or not the statute was actually

           20     violated, whether or not there was any willfulness shown on

           21     the part of the actors in engaging in the conduct that they

           22     engaged in.  And we would do that with respect to any case,

           23     just as we have done in this case, your Honor.

           24                  THE COURT:  Let me ask you two further

           25     questions along this line.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  Tell me again why you argue that Bartnicki is

            2     distinguishable.

            3                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Bartnicki is

            4     distinguishable in the first instance because it doesn't

            5     deal with the national security interests of the United

            6     States.

            7                  In the second -- and it deals with an

            8     individual's right to privacy, an individual who, oh, by the

            9     way, was engaged in the telephone conversation about hurting

           10     other individuals who didn't agree with him.  Okay?

           11                  And secondly, Bartnicki is a case in which

           12     there is no implication whatsoever of the person who, who

           13     eventually broadcasted the tape-recorded conversation, nor

           14     the person who obtained the tape-recorded conversation in

           15     any illegality.

           16                  That's different from this case, your Honor,

           17     because of what we've alleged in this case.  And we'll have

           18     to be put to our proof, but what we've alleged in this case

           19     is that these defendants, together with other individuals

           20     known and unknown, including Lawrence Anthony Franklin,

           21     actively decided, agreed, that they were going to gather

           22     national defense information and disseminate it.

           23                  They engaged in illegal conduct.  And that's

           24     another reason why Bartnicki does not apply to them.

           25                  THE COURT:  Well, you -- let me go back to the

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     question I asked you, which is whether a prosecution of

            2     members of the press would be different from prosecution of

            3     members of a foreign policy lobbying organization.

            4                  Why would it be any different?

            5                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I'm not -- I think that

            6     because of the function that the media serves in this

            7     country --

            8                  THE COURT:  So you're --

            9                  (Simultaneous speaking)

           10                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- we would have to be --

           11                  THE COURT:  -- taking a position --

           12                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- we would have to

           13     carefully scrutinize whether or not we would take action.

           14     And of course --

           15                  THE COURT:  So you're taking --

           16                  (Simultaneous speaking)

           17                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- as with any --

           18                  THE COURT:  -- a position now diametrically

           19     opposed to Mr. Lowell's argument that there isn't a

           20     hierarchy of values in the First Amendment.  All First

           21     Amendment -- all First Amendment rights are of the same

           22     stature.

           23                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Not at all, sir.  The

           24     position that I'm taking is one that has to do with the

           25     exercise of prosecutorial discretion, and what kinds of

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     things we would consider in exercising that discretion.

            2                  THE COURT:  There are comments in the Pentagon

            3     Papers, New York Times case about 793(e).

            4                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.

            5                  THE COURT:  You're familiar with that?

            6                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.  I'm sorry.

            7                  THE COURT:  Are those to be ignored?

            8                  Are they mere dicta or --

            9                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I'm not -- and if the

           10     comments of which the Court speaks are those comments made

           11     by Justices White and Justice -- Justices White and Stewart,

           12     no, they're not comments to be ignored.

           13                  All the justices were simply saying that if you

           14     look at the statute on its face, it plainly applies to

           15     journalists.

           16                  And that's all we said in our pleading, was

           17     that 35 years ago, two very brilliant Supreme Court justices

           18     decided to take a look at that statute, and said that that

           19     statute on its face plainly applies to anyone, to anyone,

           20     whoever, whoever engages in the criminal conduct that is

           21     laid out in the statute.

           22                  THE COURT:  I take it you would agree that even

           23     if this statute were constitutional, as applied to these

           24     defendants, they still are entitled to raise an overbreadth

           25     argument, that is, that it would have unconstitutional

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     application if it were applied -- if it could be, be by its

            2     terms, applied in some other context because of the First

            3     Amendment considerations?

            4                  In other words, it's an established doctrine in

            5     constitutional law that typically you may not go beyond an

            6     as-applied context.  Courts don't consider overbreadth

            7     arguments in context unless they're First Amendment.  And

            8     that's set out in a number of cases.

            9                  So, here, wouldn't you agree that these

           10     defendants, in this context, are able to raise not only

           11     as-applied claims, which they have, but also the overbreadth

           12     claim?

           13                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  They've raised it, your

           14     Honor, but I --

           15                  THE COURT:  Facially overbreadth.

           16                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- don't think -- but I

           17     don't think that they -- that the Court should consider that

           18     they've successfully raised the claim.

           19                  THE COURT:  Why not?

           20                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It's not overly broad,

           21     your Honor, because what the statute -- what the statute in

           22     its -- what the statute in its application would do, would

           23     punish willful criminal conduct.  It's not about speech.

           24     It's about conduct.

           25                  THE COURT:  Well, how many retransmissions

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     would it apply to?

            2                  In other words, let's suppose that these people

            3     passed it on, then somebody else passed it on, and so forth

            4     and so on.  Would it continue to apply ad infinitum?

            5                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I think -- of course, all

            6     of us, I guess, are familiar -- well, that's a difficult

            7     question to answer in the abstract, your Honor.  It would

            8     all depend upon the evidence that the government could bring

            9     to bear; again, evidence of willful criminal conduct.

           10                  THE COURT:  Let's come back to the first

           11     question I asked, which is:  What is the standard?

           12                  Have you found in Goren yet where the standard

           13     is not strict scrutiny?

           14                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I got sidetracked.  If I

           15     may have a moment, your Honor.

           16                  THE COURT:  All right, you may.

           17                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Thank you, sir.

           18                  (Pause)

           19                  THE COURT:  And Mr. Lowell, you should be

           20     looking and be prepared to tell me why you think it is

           21     not -- or it is strict scrutiny, because that's clearly a

           22     very important threshold and an analytical point.  That

           23     directs the analysis, is whether it's strict scrutiny or

           24     not.

           25                  (Pause)

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  I'm also -- while you're looking,

            2     I'm going to want you, Mr. DiGregory, to tell me, as

            3     succinctly as you can, both as a textual matter and as a

            4     constitutional matter, why this statute is not restricted to

            5     documentary information; that is, information in documents

            6     or tapes or whatever.  Why the oral transmission is

            7     included, both as a textual matter, using the Latin maxims

            8     of ejusdem generis, or the other one I can't pronounce,

            9     whatever it is, definition by association.

           10                  In other words, the argument is made that all

           11     of the other matters that are in the statute relate to

           12     tangible information.  Therefore, national defense

           13     information should be limited to tangible manifestations of

           14     it.  That is the textual matter.

           15                  Now, also I want you to address why it isn't

           16     necessary to construe it that way constitutionally.  But

           17     before I can know that, you've got to tell me whether it's

           18     strict scrutiny or not.

           19                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  While Mr. Reilly looks for

           20     that, in the interest of time, I'll try to address the Court

           21     on the textual matter.

           22                  THE COURT:  All right.

           23                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I think before you look --

           24     and I think while looking at the statute, in context, and in

           25     looking at the word "information," and in looking at

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     regulations that were promulgated by a commission

            2     established by the Congress, there's some guidance.

            3                  If you look at the word "information" and you

            4     look at definition of the word "information," that

            5     definition is not restricted to the written word or a

            6     document.  Okay?

            7                  If you look at the statute itself, and you look

            8     at the -- at information related to the national defense,

            9     everything else is a document.

           10                  I would submit -- or is a document or data or

           11     something tangible that you can get your hands on.

           12                  I would argue to the Court that, contextually,

           13     that means that Congress intended to punish oral

           14     dissemination of information related to the national

           15     defense, and applied the reason to believe standard when the

           16     communication was oral.

           17                  If you look at the sentencing guidelines -- and

           18     I don't have the cite to the particular provision, but we

           19     cited it in our pleading, the sentencing guidelines call,

           20     when there's transmission of information related to the

           21     national defense, as opposed to documents, data, et cetera,

           22     the sentencing guidelines call for an enhanced penalty when

           23     that occurs.

           24                  So I think the sentencing guidelines, as well,

           25     suggest that the word "information" is intended to include

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     oral transmissions of classified information.

            2                  That's --

            3                  THE COURT:  All right.

            4                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- textually.

            5                  THE COURT:  Have you found your support or the

            6     basis on which you contend strict scrutiny doesn't apply?

            7                  (Pause)

            8                  THE COURT:  And then I'm going to ask you what

            9     standard does apply.  And then I'm going to ask you if

           10     strict scrutiny applies, what result you think follows from

           11     that.

           12                  (Pause)

           13                  THE COURT:  And then, Mr. Lowell, I will give

           14     you an opportunity, unfettered, to respond to what Mr.

           15     DiGregory has said.

           16                  And then I'm going to take a recess.

           17                  (Pause)

           18                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  May I confer?

           19                  THE COURT:  Yes, you may confer.

           20                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Thank you.

           21                  THE COURT:  If you need a few minutes, I will

           22     take a recess now.  Would that be helpful?

           23                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  That would be, your Honor,

           24     if you wouldn't --

           25                  THE COURT:  All right.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- mind.  Thank you, your

            2     Honor.

            3                  THE COURT:  What I will do is take a recess

            4     now.

            5                  You all can confer, as well.

            6                  What I intend to find out, or probe, is what is

            7     the standard.  I want you each to address that.

            8                  And then, Mr. Lowell, I want you to have an

            9     opportunity to address all of the things that he's said, if

           10     you wish --

           11                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  I appreciate that.

           12                  THE COURT:  -- in a focused way.  And then I

           13     will have heard what I need to hear, profitably, about this

           14     particular motion, which obviously I consider to be a very

           15     important motion.

           16                  Court stands in recess for ten minutes.

           17                  (Court recessed at 2:33 p.m.)

           18                  (Court called to order at 3:03.)

           19                  THE COURT:  All right.  Before, I go back and

           20     get an answer, let me set the stage, because I'm only going

           21     to hear the parties a bit more on this, and then deal with

           22     some other matters.  This is clearly a very important

           23     motion.  I'm going to set the stage a little bit.

           24                  In general -- and I know I'm not doing it in

           25     the detail -- and I may have things wrong.  I understand

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     that.  I haven't fully resolved this.  And you'll have a

            2     chance to correct me.

            3                  But in general, there are three constitutional

            4     attacks, as I see them.  There is a void for vagueness, as

            5     applied, attack.

            6                  There is an overbreadth facial attack.

            7                  And there is an overly broad, as applied, I

            8     think, is the way I would put it, which itself is a First

            9     Amendment attack.

           10                  Now, the reason I've spent so much time on

           11     asking what is the standard -- you said you were going to

           12     look in Goren.  Well, of course, Goren wasn't a First

           13     Amendment case.  It was a conduct case.  It's very

           14     important.

           15                  In fact, Mr. Lowell argues repeatedly:  You

           16     know -- he didn't say this explicitly, but this is what it

           17     is:  If the statute were construed to be limited to tangible

           18     objects, no First Amendment analysis would be appropriate.

           19     Then you would be in the Goren regime, as it were.

           20                  Whether -- and of course, at least as to one

           21     count, if not both, that would be the end of the matter.

           22                  But anyway, the overbreadth argument is, as a

           23     facial matter, is, I think, a First Amendment analysis,

           24     which requires strict scrutiny.  I think.

           25                  The First Amendment attack, the separate

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     vagueness First Amendment attack, is, maybe, strict

            2     scrutiny.

            3                  Now, the void for vagueness as applied

            4     attack -- or not void for vagueness, but excessively vague,

            5     is the fair warning issue; that is, the Lanier case -- I

            6     think it's Lanier.  Yes, it's the Lanier case that sets out

            7     the standard there.

            8                  And that's the case in which, on the As-applied

            9     Vagueness Doctrine, would have this Court ask whether this

           10     statute, as applied here, requires -- or forbids the doing

           11     of an act in terms that -- so vague that men of common

           12     intelligence necessarily must guess at its meaning and

           13     differ as to its application.

           14                  That's a very hard standard to apply.  It

           15     sounds right.  It sounds noble.  But I'm always reminded of

           16     the judgments that people have to make about obscenity.  And

           17     indeed, I've written about that subject.

           18                  The First Amendment, I think I said somewhere

           19     in the opinion, requires that you be thick-skinned and take

           20     chances, because there is no sharp line between what is

           21     merely pornographic and what is obscene and not protected by

           22     the First Amendment, except perhaps in the child area.

           23                  Otherwise, you know, these issues are presented

           24     to a jury and they are a matter of local standards.

           25                  That hardly squares with the Lanier standard.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     But then we live in an imperfect world, and the Supreme

            2     Court can divide up the world as it sees fit.

            3                  But we have the Lanier standard, I think, and

            4     this Court, for the vagueness attack, has to ask whether the

            5     statute forbids the doing of an act in terms so vague that

            6     men of common intelligence must necessarily guess at its

            7     meaning and differ as to its application.

            8                  And the requirement is one of fair warning by

            9     resolving ambiguities to apply only to conduct clearly

           10     covered.  And also, due process bars courts from applying a

           11     novel construction of a criminal statute to conduct that

           12     neither the statute nor any prior judicial decision has

           13     fairly disclosed to be within its scope.

           14                  That's Lanier.

           15                  Frankly, Mr. DiGregory, your response to all of

           16     that argument was contained in less than a couple or two or

           17     three pages of your consolidated response; not very much.

           18     It's a very difficult standard to apply.  I don't have any

           19     doubt that reasonable judges could disagree, all the way up

           20     to and including the Supreme Court.

           21                  Now, the other standard -- this is why I have

           22     harped a lot on strict scrutiny, and Mr. Lowell's argument,

           23     not explicit, but I think implicit, that:  Look, if you just

           24     construe this statute as applying only to tangible objects,

           25     you get rid of the whole strict scrutiny issue.  You get rid

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     of all First Amendment.

            2                  And of course, he doesn't have to go on to add

            3     this, but it certainly gets rid of at least Count 1.  And

            4     whether or not it then thereafter is void for vagueness, I

            5     don't think Mr. Lowell cares, as long as he gets that.

            6                  So, that is a significant, significant problem.

            7                  And there is a textual argument, anyway, quite

            8     apart from the constitutional argument.  I mean, I have to

            9     decide that issue.  It isn't that I don't have the luxury.

           10     I have to decide whether, textually, it applies.  Because if

           11     textually it doesn't apply, then I don't have to reach any

           12     question.

           13                  Now, are you prepared to tell me whether it's

           14     First Amendment strict scrutiny with respect to the facial

           15     overbreadth challenge, with respect to the First Amendment

           16     challenge, as applied?

           17                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  We don't believe that the

           18     standard is strict scrutiny, your Honor.  And we don't

           19     believe that it's strict scrutiny, because every court that

           20     has considered an overbreadth challenge to this statute has

           21     decided that the statute is not fatally overbroad.

           22                  THE COURT:  When you say "every court," we know

           23     that -- what was it, Troung?

           24                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Troung, Morrissey.

           25                  THE COURT:  Those were documents, tangible,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     right?

            2                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.

            3                  THE COURT:  Morrissey, tangible documents,

            4     right?

            5                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes.

            6                  THE COURT:  Goren, tangible documents, right?

            7                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.

            8                  THE COURT:  What other cases are there where it

            9     was oral?

           10                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  There is only one other

           11     case that I'm aware of where it was oral, your Honor, and

           12     that was the Pelton case.  And I think a fair reading of the

           13     Pelton case suggests that there were both -- there was both

           14     a documentary exchange and an oral exchange.

           15                  One of the methods that Mr. Pelton used in

           16     dealing with his Soviet handlers -- and he was a government

           17     employee.  One of the methods that he used in dealing with

           18     his Soviet handlers was to engage them in conversation.  And

           19     when they asked him the right questions, he would give them

           20     the right answers, including answers which divulged

           21     classified information.

           22                  THE COURT:  And what statute was he prosecuted

           23     under?

           24                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I believe Pelton was

           25     prosecuted under 794.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  All right.

            2                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Now, what I -- what I

            3     can't say without looking back to the case -- I don't

            4     misrepresent anything or mislead the Court -- I don't know

            5     whether -- without looking book at it, whether Pelton

            6     actually made an overbreadth challenge to the statute.

            7                  THE COURT:  All right.

            8                  But do you know of any case, considering a 793

            9     prosecution, in which there was a prosecution under 793,

           10     that considers an overbreadth argument and whether it should

           11     be First Amendment-based or not?  Strict scrutiny, in other

           12     words.

           13                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  None of the cases that I'm

           14     aware of -- but again, these are cases dealing with

           15     documents.  None of the cases that I'm aware of have applied

           16     a strict scrutiny standard.

           17                  THE COURT:  All right.

           18                  Now, I don't think -- I want to make maximum

           19     use of the time that we have, and I do want argument on one

           20     other motion that I'm going to need today, and I'm going to

           21     dispose of some motions today.  But I've obviously explained

           22     to you how important I consider this particular motion to

           23     be.

           24                  Going back to the void -- or the vague as

           25     applied attack, can you tell me succinctly under the Lanier

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     statute why you believe that this statute is not void -- or

            2     is not unconstitutionally vague as applied to these facts,

            3     given the standard about, it's got to appear to men of

            4     common intelligence that they don't have to guess as to the

            5     meaning or application, and that in doing that, that the

            6     canon of strict construction and Rule of Lenity insures fair

            7     warning by resolving ambiguities?

            8                  Well, aren't there ambiguities in here?

            9                  And what about -- and the third leg of the void

           10     for vagueness analysis is the due process bar, or the due

           11     process argument that says courts shouldn't apply a novel

           12     construction.

           13                  Well, it would be -- Mr. Lowell didn't say,

           14     "Hey, look at this in Lanier," and then tell me about,

           15     there's never been a prosecution.  But that's what he meant.

           16     That's what he meant.

           17                  He says, "Look" -- and he said so in his brief.

           18     He said, "Look," he said, "due process bars a novel

           19     construction, and it has never been applied in this context

           20     before."

           21                  Now, given those three legs of Lanier, can you

           22     respond to those?

           23                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Well, I'll respond by

           24     beginning with the textual argument that I made earlier

           25     about the word "information."  I think what the Court -- I

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     suggest that what the Court does is look to the plain

            2     meaning of the statute and the plain meetings of the words.

            3     The word "information," as I stated earlier, includes oral

            4     communications.  I think it's a word that is understood

            5     readily by most people.

            6                  Secondly, the sentencing guidelines that were

            7     promulgated by a commission established by Congress,

            8     recognized -- and I have the --

            9                  THE COURT:  What's the provision?

           10                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It's 2.31.  We cited it in

           11     our brief.  I can find it.

           12                  (Pause)

           13                  THE COURT:  That's all right.  Go ahead.  I can

           14     find in the index.

           15                  What is it?

           16                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  2(m)(3.3), your Honor --

           17                  THE COURT:  All right.  I have it.

           18                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- should be the section.

           19                  And what the provision does -- it is

           20     2(m)(3.3) -- 2(m)(3.2)(A), initially, and then 2(m)(3.3),

           21     commentary and application note.

           22                  And it says, if the defendant was convicted of

           23     18 USC 793(d) or (e) for the willful transmission of

           24     communication of intangible information, with reason to

           25     believe that it could be used to the injury of the

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     United States or the advantage of a foreign nation, apply

            2     2(m)(3.2)(A).  And the resulting application is a six level

            3     increase in the base offense level, for the defendant so

            4     convicted of that crime.

            5                  THE COURT:  So this is a construction -- and I

            6     think this has been around since roughly in the '80s, '87 or

            7     whenever the sentencing guidelines came in.  What do you

            8     argue from the fact that the Sentencing Commission has said

            9     this?

           10                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Well, I think the

           11     Sentencing Commission read the plain language of the statute

           12     and read the modification, or the additional language, that

           13     is, the scienter requirement that is established when you're

           14     talking about intangible information related to the national

           15     defense, or information related to the national defense, of

           16     a reason to believe that that information would either inure

           17     to the benefit of a foreign nation or would do harm to the

           18     United States.

           19                  I think they looked at the plain language of

           20     the statute, said that this must mean something different --

           21     because the word "information" means something different --

           22     than clearly any document, data, compilation, et cetera,

           23     map, that is laid out in the statute, and -- and therefore

           24     believed that a more significant penalty needed to be

           25     applied when you were talking about an offense which is far

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     more difficult to detect, and that would be the disclosure

            2     of tangible information or an oral disclosure.

            3                  THE COURT:  All right.

            4                  Continue.  You were addressing why you think

            5     this statute meets the three-prong Lanier test.

            6                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I would again go back,

            7     your Honor, to an argument that I touched about earlier,

            8     about willfulness.  In any vagueness challenge -- and I

            9     think the Court said this in the Lindh case -- is difficult

           10     to sustain -- it's been said by other courts as well -- when

           11     a charge such as the one in this case requires the

           12     government to prove willful intent, willful -- and willful

           13     conduct.

           14                  THE COURT:  All right.  You've said that helps

           15     save it from vagueness.

           16                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.

           17                  THE COURT:  All right.

           18                  I take it -- and what I intend to do, so that

           19     it's not unclear to all of you, is obviously I regard this

           20     as central to this case, and important.  I am going to call

           21     for simultaneous further briefing and a short schedule on

           22     these issues.  I've already indicated that you spent -- I

           23     didn't find your response in writing to match up with the

           24     fairly extensive attack by the defendants.  But, so I am

           25     going to have further briefing.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  But assuming that the First Amendment attacks

            2     requires strict scrutiny, then how in the world does this

            3     statute survive?

            4                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  It survives because of the

            5     national security interest of the United States, and

            6     because -- again, we don't think that that standard should

            7     be applied, because although we are talking about an oral

            8     disclosure, we're talking about a disclosure, which is

            9     conduct, your Honor, and not protected speech.

           10                  THE COURT:  Say that again, Mr. DiGregory.

           11                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  What we're -- what we're

           12     talking about here, your Honor, in the first instance, is

           13     conduct.  We're not talking about speech.

           14                  Despite the fact that the disclosures, the

           15     communications of national defense information to persons

           16     not entitled to receive it, that are alleged as the objects

           17     of the conspiracy, despite that fact, your Honor, we're

           18     talking not -- I would suggest that the Court look at the

           19     disclosure as conduct, regardless of whether the disclosure

           20     is of the written word or the spoken word.

           21                  That is what I suggest to you the statute seeks

           22     to punish.  And it seeks to punish criminal conduct --

           23                  THE COURT:  So you don't --

           24                  (Simultaneous speaking)

           25                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- not First --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  -- there is --

            2                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- Amendment --

            3                  THE COURT:  -- a difference --

            4                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- protected --

            5                  THE COURT:  -- between --

            6                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY -- activity.

            7                  THE COURT:  -- speech and conduct?

            8                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I'm saying this is

            9     conduct, your Honor.

           10                  THE COURT:  But you've alleged speech.

           11                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  No, we've --

           12                  THE COURT:  You've alleged -- you haven't

           13     alleged that they passed documents.

           14                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  No, sir.

           15                  THE COURT:  You have alleged --

           16                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  We --

           17                  THE COURT:  -- that they said things.

           18                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  We haven't alleged speech.

           19     We have alleged disclosures.  We've alleged

           20     communications --

           21                  THE COURT:  By voice, by -- orally.  You

           22     can't -- do you think that you can transform speech into

           23     conduct?

           24                  You can't do it just by labeling it conduct.

           25     All speech is conduct --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Your Honor --

            2                  THE COURT:  -- a type of conduct, but it's a

            3     type of conduct which Mr. Lowell would quickly say falls

            4     within the First Amendment.  But he would have to be quick

            5     to concede that conduct in terms of giving someone a

            6     document is not speech, under the First Amendment.

            7                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  In the first instance,

            8     your Honor, I would suggest to you that to read the statute

            9     so narrowly and to read that clause of the statute so

           10     narrowly as to require the government, in order to stench

           11     the flow of disclosures of classified information, to prove

           12     that a document was released, would be -- would do great

           13     damage to our ability to protect the national security.

           14                  You can conceive of the situation where someone

           15     who could read a document and then repeat that document to

           16     someone else, while it's not in front of him, over the

           17     telephone, might not be subject to any penalties because

           18     they didn't transfer a document.

           19                  THE COURT:  All right.

           20                  Do you have anything else before I allow

           21     Mr. Lowell to respond, very briefly?

           22                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  One more case that I would

           23     like you to consider, your Honor, in this context.  It's the

           24     case of Hague versus Agee.  It's a case in which the

           25     Secretary of State decided to --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  What's the cite?

            2                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I have it here for your

            3     Honor.  Hague versus Agee can be found at 453 US 280.  It's

            4     a 1981 Supreme Court case.

            5                  THE COURT:  All right.

            6                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Agee was a former CIA

            7     employee whose passport was revoked because Agee indicated

            8     that he was going to go on a crusade, essentially, to out

            9     CIA operatives in other countries, and basically try to make

           10     shambles of the CIA's operations in various places.

           11                  In doing this, Agee communicated, spoke about

           12     those agents, not only violating the agreement that he had

           13     reached with the agency to keep the names of those

           14     operatives and to keep the information that he was -- that

           15     he had access to secret, but subjecting them to, I suppose,

           16     some danger.

           17                  What the court talked about in Hague versus

           18     Agee was that although Agee was allowed to engage in

           19     criticism of the government, Agee was not permitted to

           20     engage -- the Secretary of State was perfectly within his

           21     right, perfectly within his right to revoke the passport.

           22                  The Court found at page 27 -- excuse me -- at

           23     page 308, that Agee's First Amendment claim that he made has

           24     no foundation.  His passport rests, in part, on the content

           25     of his speech; specifically, his repeated disclosures of

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     intelligence operations and names of intelligence personnel.

            2                  The mere fact -- later on the Court says, in

            3     that same paragraph --

            4                  THE COURT:  Well, they revoked his passport,

            5     right?

            6                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Correct.

            7                  THE COURT:  Well, do you find that that's

            8     somehow different from a felony prosecution?

            9                  They didn't seek to prosecute him.  They simply

           10     revoked his passport, which is a privilege, not necessarily

           11     a right.

           12                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I understand.  I

           13     understand that, your Honor.

           14                  However, but what the Court writes about what

           15     happened to Agee is, I believe, significant and pertinent.

           16                  THE COURT:  Is that the --

           17                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I believe --

           18                  (Simultaneous speaking)

           19                  THE COURT:  -- part where --

           20                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- it's analogous --

           21                  THE COURT:  -- it begins, "It's obvious and

           22     unarguable that no governmental interest is more compelling

           23     than the security of the nation"?

           24                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Well, there -- there's a

           25     passage at page 309 which reads:

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                      To the extent the revocation of his passport

            2               operates to inhibit Agee, it is an inhibition of

            3               action, rather than speech.

            4                  The mere fact Agee is also --

            5                  THE COURT:  Yes.  It doesn't stop him from

            6     speaking.  It stops him from traveling.

            7                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  But it --

            8                  THE COURT:  That's all.

            9                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- also stops him from

           10     going to where he needed to go to disclose the things he

           11     believed he needed to disclose.

           12                  THE COURT:  In these days, that's

           13     insignificant.  You can communicate anywhere in the world on

           14     a computer and a keyboard, on a microphone, or whatever.

           15                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I understand.  But the

           16     nature of Agee's crusade was one which he believed required

           17     him to travel worldwide.

           18                  THE COURT:  All right.

           19                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  And even above that, your

           20     Honor, the mere fact that Agee is also engaged in criticism

           21     of the government does not render his conduct beyond the

           22     reach of the law.

           23                  What I'm suggesting to the Court is, is that

           24     because of the kinds of information that Agee was

           25     disclosing, that was considered a regulation of conduct,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     what the Secretary of State did, and not an infringement on

            2     his First Amendment right to speak freely.

            3                  THE COURT:  Well, I guess I come back to one

            4     more thing.  I don't have any doubt that the government

            5     could proscribe and make illegal the transmission of

            6     national defense information, defined in some way.  And it

            7     doesn't matter whether you're a journalist, whether you're

            8     where a lobbyists or whether you're a plumber or a judge.

            9                  But the question that I was asking is:  When

           10     does strict scrutiny come into play in the constitutional

           11     analysis of the overbreadth of a statute?

           12                  That wasn't at issue in Hague against Agee.

           13     You cite Hague against Agee for the proposition that there

           14     are circumstances where the government's interest in

           15     protecting it's security is sufficient to deny somebody a

           16     passport which might have an incidental effect on his

           17     ability to speak in remote places.

           18                  I don't know if that moves me very much,

           19     frankly.  But I take your point.  And it was in your brief

           20     at page 22.

           21                  And you also cite there the Marchetti case --

           22                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes.

           23                  THE COURT:  -- which was the publication of a

           24     book by a former CIA agent.

           25                  I guess what I'm really expressing discomfort

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     about is:  It's always nice to have clear precedent to

            2     follow.  And this really is a case -- my initial thought was

            3     maybe that, since this statute has been around for so long,

            4     that this would be a case that would be governed by

            5     well-established precedent.

            6                  I don't think it is, and I think we are a bit

            7     in new, unchartered waters, and that's why I'm going to

            8     consider this matter extremely carefully.

            9                  Mr. Lowell, much of what I've said are

           10     arguments you've made.  So I don't need to hear them again.

           11                      ARGUMENT BY THE DEFENDANTS

           12                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  I promise, your Honor.  You

           13     have been very kind to both of us, to give us this much time

           14     on something so important.  So let me ask that I respond to

           15     the five distinct points that you have --

           16                  THE COURT:  All right.

           17                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- asked questions about of,

           18     what would your side be.

           19                  And let me start with the first one, which is

           20     the standard of strict scrutiny.  This is not conduct.  This

           21     is speech.  It's speech because the courts have defined when

           22     people are expressing themselves, and what determines

           23     whether or not it's lawful or unlawful as to content, then

           24     you are talking about protected speech.

           25                  What is and is not national defense information

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     depends on the content of what is being spoken, as your

            2     hypothetical took both me and Mr. DiGregory one step at a

            3     time.  What if it was just --

            4                  THE COURT:  Well, I was going to take you one

            5     step at a time, but you were going to fight at every

            6     battlement.  So I didn't think it was worth it.  I quit.

            7                  (Laughter)

            8                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Well, then I -- then I came

            9     back and answered it anyway.  At least I thought I tried.

           10                  So on the issue of whether the announcement was

           11     going to be that there would be an announcement, okay.  If

           12     the announcement is going to be about a country, one step

           13     further -- if it's an announcement that that country is

           14     going to have some sort of military exercise; one step

           15     further.  It is content oriented.

           16                  Once it's content oriented, Bartnicki and the

           17     cases it cites, like Playboy Enterprises and others, make

           18     clear that it has to be determined by strict scrutiny.

           19                  And you don't have to take my word for it.  All

           20     you have to do is read the dissent of the chief justice who

           21     is criticizing what his majority brothers and sisters had

           22     done, and said that:

           23                      As to the majority in Bartnicki, it subjects

           24               these laws to the strict scrutiny normally

           25               reserved for governmental attempts to censor

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1               different viewpoints or ideas or speech.

            2     Later on he says:

            3                      Each of these laws at issue regulate the

            4               content or subject matter of speech.  And that

            5               fact alone is enough to trigger strict scrutiny --

            6     citing the Playboy Enterprises case.

            7                  THE COURT:  So you would agree, of course, that

            8     Congress could pass a statute restricting speech of persons

            9     involving some kind of classified information, as long as it

           10     was -- met strict scrutiny.

           11                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Yes.  And then we have to

           12     determine to ask the Lanier set of questions:  Did it also

           13     put the person on proper notice that their speech --

           14                  THE COURT:  Well, if it satisfies strict

           15     scrutiny, I would think that it would also do that.

           16                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Yeah, I think that's a fair

           17     point.  I think that's right.

           18                  So, to start off with, I wanted to point out

           19     how the cases come together to make it clear that on the

           20     First Amendment scrutiny we're asking the Court to apply, it

           21     is, in fact, strict scrutiny.

           22                  Then, in moving from the First Amendment

           23     context to the due process context, you asked Mr. DiGregory:

           24     What are the limits?

           25                  You asked him it in two different ways:  In the

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     retransmission, where does it stop; and in the kinds of --

            2     as I was trying to answer, not doing it well, in each step

            3     of your hypothetical.

            4                  And this is what he said.  He said:  There are

            5     limits.

            6                  And then you asked him:  What are they?

            7                  And he never answered.  He never gave you any

            8     of the government's ideas as to where they could tell you to

            9     draw the line, or that people that were trying to obey the

           10     law could.

           11                  Then he said, it, quote, "depends on the

           12     information."

           13                  Then he said:  We would use our prosecutorial

           14     discretion to decide.

           15                  Well, your Honor, as the courts point out, and

           16     we pointed out in our brief, it is not up to prosecutorial

           17     discretion to render either a statute --

           18                  THE COURT:  (Inaudible - microphone not yet

           19     activated due to simultaneous speaking).

           20                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- or its ap- --

           21                  THE COURT:  -- would say, better put, that if

           22     you leave it up to statutory -- or prosecutorial discretion,

           23     what you've done is spotlighted the vagueness.

           24                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  That is exactly right.

           25                  And the Supreme Court in the Kosminski case,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     that we cite to Mr. DiGregory's claim that it's a jury

            2     question, is really right on point when it says:  You cannot

            3     delegate to prosecutors and juries the inherently

            4     legislative task of determining what type of activities

            5     should be morally reprehensible as to be punished as crimes.

            6     So --

            7                  THE COURT:  Except in obscenity.

            8                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Except sometimes in

            9     obscenity, right.

           10                  But we haven't done that in the area here.

           11                  And so the third point that he raised was --

           12     and you've struggled to find an analogous situation.  So the

           13     government stretches Goren or Troung.  Now they've stretched

           14     Pelton or the Agee case.

           15                  And as the Court pointed out, number one,

           16     you're dealing often, or almost always, with the government

           17     employees.

           18                  When you're not dealing with government

           19     employees, for example in Troung, this was individuals who

           20     had documents.  Sometimes you have government employees and

           21     documents.  In Troung, you had government employees,

           22     documents, and the defendants scratched off the

           23     classification.  So they were certainly aware of precisely

           24     what were the parameters of what they were prohibited from

           25     doing because their conduct, as applied, indicated that

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     frame of mind.

            2                  The cases that they cite, Morrison (sic), as

            3     you pointed out, a government employee dealing with

            4     documents, in that case for money, with the, again, "top

            5     secret" or "secret" or whatever it was scratched off by him

            6     or cut out or in some way obliterated.

            7                  That is how you can save taking the words

            8     "national defense information," "willfully unauthorized" and

            9     apply them to conduct that does not make it vague, overbroad

           10     or violative of the Constitution.

           11                  But when you take those same words and it's a

           12     conversation, where it is not somebody reading from it or

           13     somebody who is saying, "I am reading from it and it says

           14     'top secret,'" that's where you get into the problem.

           15                  The fourth thing I would like address that you

           16     asked, is that in the hypothetical that I wasn't doing as

           17     well as, I can revisit it to say that one thing that we

           18     skipped over, is that you pointed out in your hypothetical

           19     that, what if a government, a disgruntled employee, spoke to

           20     a lobbyist of a foreign country.

           21                  In the Troung case that Mr. DiGregory wants to

           22     point out, the foreigner in that case is a foreigner.  He is

           23     a citizen of Vietnam.  We are dealing "as applied" not just

           24     with the people in the First Amendment, but American

           25     citizens, an American lobbying organization --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  It doesn't matter.  Troung was

            2     entitled to the protections of the Constitution whether he

            3     was a citizen or not.

            4                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  But Troung, I would dare say,

            5     might not be able to get to this podium and say he and his

            6     organization were going about the normal business of

            7     petitioning the government and wrapping themselves under the

            8     highest scrutiny of regulating his conduct.

            9                  And these people in this case, and these men,

           10     can do that.

           11                  The next point -- and I have only two to go --

           12     is that on the issue of how you can look for precedent, as I

           13     now understand the government, they're saying there is no

           14     case.  It's never been applied orally.  It's never been

           15     applied orally to a government official, let alone

           16     necessarily to the nongovernment official.  And then, out of

           17     their attempt to find something to hang their hook on, they

           18     have mentioned the sentencing guidelines.

           19                  And I wasn't going to address it, but since the

           20     government came back to it, your Honor, the sentencing

           21     guidelines issue pointed out were promulgated first by the

           22     Commission after the '87 act, towards the end of that year.

           23     That's -- it's not a statute.  It's a regulation by a

           24     commission.  They're not the members of Congress.

           25                  No court has opined on the subject.  No court

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     has addressed that sentencing guideline under the same

            2     scrutiny that might have to happen as we are asking you to

            3     scrutinize the prosecution side.

            4                  And if that were not the case, I mean, we've

            5     talked about the CIA general counsel and other who have

            6     tried to apply this on a day-to-day basis, and have said 793

            7     doesn't work.

            8                  But if you were to look to the sentencing

            9     guidelines, as the government is asking you to as an

           10     after-the-fact pronouncement of somebody who was not around

           11     in 1917 to opine on the intent of Congress, what would you

           12     find?

           13                  You would find more problems.  Because the

           14     sentencing guidelines, for example, would have this Court

           15     sentence somebody more severely if they were passing top

           16     secret information than secret, secret than confidential.

           17                  So in an oral conversation, if somebody says,

           18     "This is classified," how do you punish the person?

           19                  In a document that says "top secret," "secret"

           20     or "confidential," that sentencing guidelines make sense.

           21                  The guidelines actually underscore the problems

           22     of ambiguity, vagueness and overbreadth.  They don't support

           23     the government.  They undercut it.  Because somebody may

           24     have added a line that says "oral" in it somewhere, doesn't

           25     help to clarify the intent of Congress 70 years prior to the

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     guidelines.

            2                  Finally, we welcome the opportunity to further

            3     brief this issue, on issues of, for example, the standard

            4     and the three prongs of Lanier.

            5                  But when you wrap it all together, what you

            6     have just said, I think, is the way I would best conclude,

            7     which is that:  You don't have precedent of the government

            8     trying to apply words which on their face have no clear

            9     meaning, and don't even have a definitional section, as

           10     opposed to other aspects of the Espionage Act that do, to

           11     conduct which is not conduct, but speech, and speech that is

           12     in the normal day-to-day activities of how that foreign

           13     policy is done.

           14                  Let me last remind both the government and us

           15     that this is not the first time courts have tried to

           16     struggle with this, as you've already asked the Court -- the

           17     government about the Pentagon Papers case.  But do remember

           18     that they were also addressing the 1950 revisions,

           19     amendments, and pointed out, in talking about this, that

           20     important line which says that when they revisited the

           21     1970 (sic) Espionage Statute in '50, they made an express

           22     statement that went along with the revisions, that, quote,

           23     "nothing in the legislation shall be construed to authorize,

           24     require or establish military or citizen censorship, or in

           25     any way infringe upon First Amendment freedoms" -- not

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     freedom of the press, not freedom of speech, not right to

            2     petition the government, but defined as "First Amendment

            3     freedoms," the totality, all the classes.  And that's what

            4     the government's prosecution of these men for this conduct

            5     is now trying to do.

            6                  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.

            7                  Simultaneous further briefs will be due a week

            8     from today.  If you wish to have copies of this -- or

            9     transcripts of this hearing, you can request that of the

           10     court reporter, and I'm sure he can give you his exorbitant

           11     price for a rapid transcript.  He lives in a large house and

           12     drives many cars --

           13                  (Laughter).

           14                  THE COURT:  -- and he needs to support that

           15     lifestyle.

           16                 PARTIAL RULING ON MOTIONS BY THE COURT

           17                  THE COURT:  If you look at 14 down here

           18     (indicating), didn't I already deal with that?

           19                  153.  I'm not sure.  The reason it's here is I

           20     don't think there's an order dealing with it.  I think the

           21     government sought to strike some overt act.  Is this

           22     different?

           23                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I don't believe you ruled

           24     on that motion, your Honor.  And I think this is a motion

           25     dealing with -- this particular motion is dealing with a --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     language in one of the overt acts where we had asked the

            2     Court in a pleading to strike the word "unclassified," and

            3     add a word.

            4                  THE COURT:  And what was the word that was to

            5     be added?

            6                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Well -- oh, I'm sorry.

            7                  I think the pleading might have asked you to

            8     add a word, but I think we had argued to the Court at a

            9     later time that we were going to ask you simply to strike

           10     the word, and the word was "unclassified."

           11                  I have to look at the indictment to see

           12     specifically which overt act it was.

           13                  THE COURT:  All right.

           14                  And that was opposed, wasn't it, Mr. Lowell,

           15     Mr. Nassikas?

           16                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  That was opposed, your

           17     Honor, at argument.  We also had filed our brief laying out

           18     some case law that applies.

           19                  THE COURT:  Right.  Well, the basic principle

           20     that governs that and the defendant's motion to strike overt

           21     acts as surplusage, I don't plan, if this matter is tried,

           22     to give the jury the indictment, nor do I read to the jury

           23     the entire indictment.  I read only the operative portions

           24     of the -- that state the elements of the offense.  So, it

           25     doesn't much matter in that respect.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  The -- generally, surplusage should be stricken

            2     and a motion to strike it should be granted only if it's

            3     clear that it's not relevant to the charge, inflammatory and

            4     prejudicial.  But all of those go to whether it goes to a

            5     jury.  And I don't give it to a jury, nor do I find the

            6     surplusage here inflammatory, irrelevant to the charges and

            7     prejudicial.

            8                  So the defendant's motion to strike overt acts

            9     is denied, and the government's motion to change it is

           10     denied.

           11                  Now, let me cover some others.  There is a

           12     request by the defendants that the Court adopt a jury

           13     selection process that would involve questionnaires and voir

           14     dire procedures and additional peremptory challenges.

           15                  There are many ways to do it.  I've been doing

           16     it different ways as a lawyer and as a judge for now beyond

           17     35 years.  There is no one right way.  But there is the way

           18     I think is the best, and that's the way I'm going to

           19     continue.

           20                  I do not use questionnaires.  I'm nonetheless

           21     quite sensitive to the need to select an impartial jury.  It

           22     won't be a surprise to any of you that I've done it in cases

           23     involving much more notoriety than this one, and have been

           24     able to do so, I think, successfully.

           25                  I will conduct the voir dire.  I will ask all

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     the questions.  Counsel may participate in three ways.  They

            2     may submit voir dire, suggested voir dire in advance.  Mr.

            3     Nassikas knows this.  He has been through it, as I think

            4     Mr. Hammerstrom has a number of times, and Mr. DiGregory, as

            5     well.  You can submit voir dire in advance, and I will

            6     consider that.  Then I will conduct my voir dire.

            7                  In the course of inquiring of jurors at the

            8     bench individually about certain matters, after that juror

            9     has left the bench to return to his or her seat in the

           10     courtroom, if you believe I have not followed up some issue

           11     adequately, you may then suggest further voir dire.

           12                  If I find that your suggestion is narrowly

           13     tailored to ferret out some impermissible bias, and not

           14     unduly intrusive, I will have the person return and I will

           15     ask the further questions.

           16                  Then at the end of the voir dire I will ask --

           17     of my voir dire, I will ask you if there is anything

           18     further.  If there is, I'll consider it pursuant to the same

           19     standard.

           20                  So, that is the jury selection process that

           21     will proceed.

           22                  The number of peremptory challenges will be as

           23     the rule provides.  I may apply some additional ones.  The

           24     suggestion made by the defendant, I think, is inappropriate,

           25     because it does, as the government points out, result in a

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     ratio that is different from the ratio prescribed by the

            2     rule.

            3                  And I would maintain that.  If the defendant

            4     gets two more strikes, I would give the government two more

            5     strikes.

            6                  But basically, the defendants, whose interest

            7     is essentially similar, would have ten strikes, the

            8     government would have six.  Now, I'm inclined in this

            9     case -- I'm not going to reach a final determination today

           10     because the exact scope of what will be tried, if anything,

           11     is unclear.

           12                  But, there certainly will be an alternate or

           13     two.  And pursuant to the rule, for each two alternates,

           14     there will be an additional strike, according to the

           15     parties.  And I may well add strikes even if there are no

           16     alternates, or no more than one or two alternates.  In other

           17     words, I may give the parties additional strikes owing to

           18     the nature of the case.

           19                  And I'm sensitive to the fact that in any jury

           20     pool in this division in Northern Virginia, we're not going

           21     to be asking questions what party did they belong to, did

           22     they subscribe to this magazine or that magazine, what

           23     church or temple they go to, or anything like that, or

           24     mosque, or whatever.

           25                  We're not going be asking questions like that,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     unless you persuade me in what you submit in advance that it

            2     has to be asked.  And I'm open to that.

            3                  But I'm going to defer the issue of peremptory

            4     challenges, but deny the request to modify the Court's

            5     questionnaire -- or the procedures to add a questionnaire or

            6     otherwise change the voir dire procedures, other than what I

            7     have described.  The number of peremptory challenges is

            8     deferred.

            9                  Now, I need to, I would profit from some

           10     argument with respect to number nine.  Mr. Nassikas,

           11     Mr. Lowell, which one of you is the designated hitter on

           12     that?

           13                  Well, it would have to be Mr. Nassikas.

           14                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  Mr. Lowell.

           15                  THE COURT:  Mr. Lowell.  Right, because --

           16                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  It is, in fact, Mr. Rosen,

           17     your Honor, cocounsel with me for Mr. Rosen.

           18                  THE COURT:  I would Like to hear argument on

           19     that.

           20                       ARGUMENT BY THE DEFENDANTS

           21                  ATTORNEY ROSEN:  Thank you, your Honor.

           22                  Your Honor, our argument for the dismissal of

           23     Count 3 follows from a number of very, I believe,

           24     straightforward premises.  On its face, the indictment poses

           25     that Dr. Rosen aided and abetted the illegal transmission of

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     a document to himself.

            2                  What we have argued in our papers is that that

            3     allegation, and the legal theory that supports it, would

            4     create liability for the mere receipt of a document.

            5     Because by definition there will always be a recipient when

            6     there's a transmission, and the recipient will also provide

            7     the principal with some means of contact, whether it's a

            8     phone number, a fax number, an address, a meeting place, et

            9     cetera.

           10                  And in this case, that is all that's alleged.

           11     The only thing that is alleged in this indictment relating

           12     to the transmission of the document in Count 3 is that

           13     Dr. Rosen provided Lawrence Franklin, allegedly, with a fax

           14     number.

           15                  And in fact, what's been alleged is that he

           16     provided Dr. Franklin with his home fax number, which the

           17     indictment concedes was not even used to send the fax.

           18                  But even putting that anomaly aside, all that's

           19     alleged to establish that an individual could aid and abet

           20     the transmission of a document to himself is that he

           21     provided the means of contact.  That, your Honor, would

           22     create liability for the mere receipt of the document.

           23                  That's something that Congress did not intend.

           24     That is not part of the statute, and it is not a viable

           25     aiding and abetting theory.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  In addition, we also have a very important fact

            2     here, and that is that Lawrence Franklin, at his plea

            3     hearing before your Honor, said under oath that he did not

            4     believe that the document at issue was classified.

            5                  This is crucial, your Honor, because it is

            6     Hornbook law that in the aiding and abetting context, the

            7     abettor must share the principal's criminal intent.  In this

            8     case, that can't be the case, since we already have the

            9     alleged principal saying he did not believe this information

           10     was classified.

           11                  And if he did not believe this information was

           12     classified, he didn't have the requisite intent.  And if he

           13     didn't have the requisite intent, the government cannot, as

           14     a legal matter, prove that Dr. Rosen had the requisite

           15     intent.

           16                  THE COURT:  Well, then his plea was

           17     improvidently accepted.

           18                  ATTORNEY ROSEN:  Well, your Honor, he didn't

           19     plead to Count 3.  And he pled to Count 1, and there were a

           20     number of overt acts.  So I don't suggest to your Honor that

           21     it was improvidently accepted.

           22                  There was an anomaly on that fact, but I belive

           23     the plea was still a valid one based on other aspects of the

           24     counts for which he pled.

           25                  But critically, he said, under oath, a fact --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     and the government -- I should digress and say, the

            2     government dismissed Count 3 against him as part of the plea

            3     agreement.  I think that's telling on that fact.

            4                  If the government had insisted on a plea to

            5     Count 3, and Lawrence Franklin had said, "wasn't classified,

            6     didn't believe it, you can't prove it," which is a

            7     paraphrase of what he said, then the plea would have been

            8     improvidently accepted had that been part of the plea.  But

            9     it was not.

           10                  THE COURT:  All right.

           11                  Anything else.

           12                  ATTORNEY ROSEN:  Those are the basic points,

           13     your Honor.  I'm happy to answer the Court's questions, if

           14     the Court wants to hear further.

           15                  THE COURT:  Mr. DiGregory, Mr. Hammerstrom,

           16     who's going to respond?

           17                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I'll respond, your Honor.

           18                  THE COURT:  All right.

           19                       ARGUMENT BY THE GOVERNMENT

           20                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  We have alleged that

           21     Mr. Rosen aided and abetted the communication of national

           22     defense information because of actions that he took in order

           23     to insure that the communication was completed.

           24                  The action is alleged specifically in Count 1

           25     of our indictment, and that action is by providing

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     Mr. Franklin with the contact information, telephone number,

            2     to which he could fax a document.

            3                  Now, the allegation in Count 1 talks about a

            4     discussion about a home number.  Nevertheless, several days

            5     after this discussion -- and I believe there are more than

            6     one discussion as to which we will be able to point in our

            7     proof of facts -- and again, I believe that the -- that

            8     whether or not the government can make its case on Count 3

            9     is dependent upon the facts -- would establish that

           10     Mr. Rosen aided and abetted the transmission of this

           11     document, and therefore aided and abetted in its disclosure

           12     to him.

           13                  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.

           14                  I'm going to take that motion under advisement.

           15     I -- and the parties may, if they wish, in this pleading or

           16     brief that I have set for a week from today, by the close of

           17     business a week from today, address anything further in that

           18     regard, as well.

           19                  What do you say -- maybe I wasn't listening

           20     carefully enough, Mr. DiGregory.

           21                  What do you say to the argument that Franklin

           22     says he had no criminal intent with respect to that in his

           23     plea, that that ends the issue?

           24                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  First of all, I don't

           25     think that the fact that Count 3 was dismissed is telling.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     And I do think that the government, regardless of what

            2     Mr. Franklin pleaded guilty to, will be able to -- should

            3     simply be put to its proof concerning whether or not this

            4     was an aiding and abetting of a disclosure of classified

            5     information by Mr. Franklin.

            6                  THE COURT:  Well, do you agree that if Mr.

            7     Franklin said, under oath, that he didn't have criminal

            8     intent with respect to that particular act, that that would

            9     end the matter of aiding and abetting as alleged in Count 3?

           10                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I'm not sure that

           11     Mr. Franklin actually said that he didn't have --

           12                  THE COURT:  Yes.  I --

           13                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  -- criminal intent.  But

           14     he said something --

           15                  THE COURT:  Yes.  I asked you to accept that.

           16                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Uhm --

           17                  THE COURT:  You see, because if that's so, then

           18     the important thing to do is to focus sharply on the

           19     transcript of that plea hearing, and the statement of facts,

           20     and determine that.

           21                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.  But I'm not

           22     sure that that is so.

           23                  I still would suggest to the Court that we

           24     would be able to put -- that we should be allowed to put our

           25     proof to the jury of whether or not that count is a viable

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     one.

            2                  THE COURT:  Well, but the proof is only -- I

            3     mean, if -- you agree, do you not, Mr. DiGregory, that the

            4     aider and abettor has to share the criminal intent of the

            5     principal?

            6                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.  But the aider

            7     and abettor's criminal intent is not necessarily proven by

            8     what he says in a plea hearing.

            9                  THE COURT:  Is not necessarily --

           10                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Not necessarily proven by

           11     what he says in a plea hearing.

           12                  THE COURT:  In a what?

           13                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  In the plea hearing.

           14                  THE COURT:  Well, but if the principal has no

           15     criminal intent, there can't be an aiding and abetting, can

           16     there?

           17                  You better address that in your brief.

           18                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.

           19                  THE COURT:  All right.

           20                  FURTHER PARTIAL RULINGS BY THE COURT

           21                  The motion for a bill of particulars, I do not

           22     find meritorious.  This indictment is adequate to meet

           23     Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 7.  A bill of particulars

           24     provides essential details omitted from the indictment.  It

           25     isn't -- it isn't a discovery tool.  It should be required

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     only when the charges in the indictment are so general they

            2     don't advise -- really advise the defendant the specific

            3     acts he's accused of.

            4                  I think the indictment clearly meets these

            5     standards of Rule 7 and provides a protection for these

            6     defendants under double jeopardy.  So, I will deny the

            7     motion for a bill of particulars.  Oral argument wouldn't

            8     aid the decisional process there.

            9                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  Your Honor, may I be

           10     possibly be heard?

           11                  THE COURT:  No, I've heard -- I gave you a

           12     chance to file a brief.  I don't think any further -- I've

           13     given the parties ample opportunity to express themselves in

           14     writing.

           15                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  There was a recent

           16     development as of yesterday, your Honor, that I would like

           17     to take issue with.  I think --

           18                  THE COURT:  Try discovery.  I'm not -- I'm

           19     satisfied -- the bill of particulars is not a discovery

           20     means, and I'm satisfied from reviewing this particular

           21     indictment, it is adequate.  If you have a discovery motion,

           22     you can bring that.

           23                  Now, the defendant's motion to dismiss Count 1

           24     is duplicitous, I also find without merit.

           25                  It's interesting where the word "duplicitous"

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     comes from in the legal context, because of course it does

            2     not mean what lawyers have come to think it means.

            3     "Duplicity" means deception.

            4                  What lawyers have come to regard it as meaning

            5     in this century, for reasons that elude me, is something

            6     akin to duplicative.  It doesn't mean that.  But lawyers

            7     have adopted "duplicitous" and misused it.  I have often

            8     puzzled about that.

            9                  But here it's understood as alleging more than

           10     one conspiracy in the count.  And I think that is a matter

           11     of proof, and I'll -- it is not, in the Court's view

           12     duplicitous.  Count 1 is not duplicitous.

           13                  All of this, of course, may be irrelevant if

           14     the Court grants any of the dispositive motions.  But I'm

           15     getting rid of them now.

           16                  Now, there is -- there was a motion here

           17     relating to -- or there was a notice of subpoenas, and

           18     defendant's motion for subpoena of witnesses.

           19                  Now, that issue -- ordinarily, when I get a

           20     request for subpoenas, before I rule on whether they're

           21     allowed, I usually do not publish the name of the witnesses,

           22     as a result of -- or out of respect for their privacy.

           23                  That's why, when these names were originally

           24     put on the docket, I told them to be taken off the

           25     document -- or off the docket.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  But by no means is Mr. Lowell or Mr. Nassikas

            2     precluded in any way from telling the press who they want

            3     subpoenaed.  That doesn't matter to me.

            4                  But I typically don't do it on court documents

            5     until after I rule on it.  That's why they were then taken

            6     off the docket.  If the parties want to reveal who they want

            7     to subpoena, I don't believe in imposing gag orders.  You

            8     may do as you wish.

            9                  Although, I do get upset if lawyers try their

           10     case in the media, and then expect me to pick a jury that is

           11     not tainted or infected by what these lawyers themselves

           12     created.  So, use your good judgment and your duty as

           13     officers of the Court in that regard.

           14                  But, I don't -- I didn't have those names

           15     removed in order to preserve any secrecy, if the parties

           16     want to reveal that.  I'll have to consider as to those

           17     persons, because there is a process that we have to go

           18     through to determine whether or not those subpoenas should

           19     actually issue.  And I'll consider that in the fullness of

           20     time, not at this time.  We'll cross that bridge if we need

           21     to.

           22                  Now, there's a motion here, there is a motion

           23     for a show cause hearing, dismissal of the indictment and

           24     imposition of sanctions, four, five and six, that are

           25     related.  And I will deal with that on the basis of the

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     papers.

            2                  There is a motion here, as well, that's now

            3     ripe Rule 15 depositions.  And I'll deal with that on the

            4     basis of the papers.

            5                  With that -- with respect to that motion, I

            6     take it, Mr. Nassikas and Mr. Lowell, that would have to be

            7     dealt with soon, because time is of the essence for you to

            8     do this.

            9                  I don't know whether -- I'm trying to refresh

           10     my recollection.  I thought I could do that on the papers.

           11     I take it the witnesses that you've identified, you haven't,

           12     as I recall, identified them by name.  Is that correct?

           13                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  Actually, in the papers,

           14     your Honor, I do recall the three names are identified.

           15                  THE COURT:  All right.

           16                  And I take these individuals have indicated

           17     their willingness to submit to such depositions.

           18                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  They have not indicated their

           19     willingness to submit to depositions.

           20                  THE COURT:  Well, how about exploring that?

           21                  Why should I decide something that isn't going

           22     to do you any good?

           23                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Well, your Honor, again, it

           24     goes to the issue of the subpoenas, in part.  Because I

           25     guess they may have a choice, which is to --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  Well, you haven't served them, have

            2     you?

            3                  You can't --

            4                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  No, pending your decision.

            5     We were trying to make it the least intrusive way possible

            6     to people that have relevant --

            7                  THE COURT:  Let's suppose I say:  Sure, you can

            8     go overseas and depose somebody if you want to.

            9                  I can't subpoena them to appear overseas.

           10                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  No.  I understand.  But at

           11     that point --

           12                  THE COURT:  So they say to you, "No."  Then

           13     what?

           14                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Then I --

           15                  THE COURT:  Then the best thing you have is

           16     maybe a due process argument, right.

           17                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Possibly, right.

           18                  THE COURT:  Other than that, what -- and you

           19     have that with or without subpoenas.

           20                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  But I also have the ability,

           21     with the Court's permission, then, to pursue, through mutual

           22     legal assistance, the ability to get their judicial system

           23     to insist that if they have pertinent information, that they

           24     appear.

           25                  THE COURT:  Why don't you take the first step,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     and advise the Court whether they are willing, or not

            2     willing.  If they are willing, that's a major hurdle for

            3     you, isn't it?

            4                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  It would obviate a major

            5     hurdle, if they are willing.

            6                  THE COURT:  Right.  It overcomes.

            7                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Right.

            8                  THE COURT:  You're right.  It overcomes a major

            9     hurdle for you.

           10                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Sure.

           11                  THE COURT:  All right.

           12                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  We will --

           13                  THE COURT:  Any reason why you couldn't explore

           14     that?

           15                  And --

           16                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  We can --

           17                  (Simultaneous speaking)

           18                  THE COURT:  -- include that --

           19                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- do it again.

           20                  THE COURT:  -- in your filing a week from

           21     today --

           22                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Yes, sir.

           23                  THE COURT:  -- and I'll that into account then.

           24                  And you may also -- advise Mr. DiGregory about

           25     that when you get it, so that he can say whether that makes

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     any difference to the analysis that he's provided to the

            2     Court.

            3                  And also, in your pleadings you do discuss

            4     somewhat the nature of the testimony that you expect to

            5     elicit.

            6                  And if you think you need to address anything

            7     more about why that's unnecessary, you can do so.

            8                  Now, that takes us -- let me see.  The

            9     outrageous -- the 159, I'm going to dispose of without oral

           10     argument.

           11                  The Rule 12.3 notices does not call for any

           12     action by the Court, does it, Mr. DiGregory or Mr. Lowell,

           13     Mr. Nassikas?

           14                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  It doesn't, your Honor.  It's

           15     just a discovery notification which we've provided.

           16                  THE COURT:  Now, on these motions for subpoena

           17     of witnesses, you have a process to go through with the

           18     government in that regard, don't you?

           19                  Or does it start -- it starts with the

           20     subpoena.

           21                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  It's -- there is (sic) two

           22     aspects, your Honor.  First is that the local rule does

           23     require permission for a certain level of government

           24     official.  And those are fashioned in that form as a motion.

           25                  As to the others outside of the rule, out of an

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     abundance of caution we have provided Touhy affidavits on

            2     all, and we have notified the general counsels of the

            3     agencies involved of our filing, and then asked them to

            4     coordinate with the court security officer.

            5                  Thereafter, I think we have done what we can

            6     do, and would assume that, because we have provided that

            7     notice, the government will either provide these individuals

            8     or come in and tell the Court why they are moving --

            9                  THE COURT:  Well, there are only three that

           10     they have objected to -- or four, is it?

           11                  Is that right, Mr. DiGregory?

           12                  There are four that were listed, that you

           13     objected to.

           14                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Your Honor, we have not

           15     filed a response yet with respect to those motions that

           16     Mr. Lowell refers to under 17(d).  We --

           17                  THE COURT:  No, but there was -- wasn't there a

           18     pleading that you filed that said that there was, you only

           19     had a view as to three or four of them?

           20                  Why do I remember that?

           21                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  I don't recall filing

           22     anything, your Honor.  In fact, we've been --

           23                  THE COURT:  All right.  Hang on, just a moment.

           24     See if I can find that.

           25                  (Pause)

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.

            2                  Mr. Lowell has applied, pursuant to 17(d), as

            3     he said, for four of those persons he thinks fall within

            4     that category.

            5                  And then DOD and State Department regulations

            6     require parties seeking the testimony of those employees to

            7     provide a reason for it under 97.1 of Title 32 of the Code

            8     of Federal Regulations.

            9                  Is that in your pleading, Mr. Lowell?

           10                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Yes, your Honor.  As I

           11     said -- you're right.  The local rule requires us, even at

           12     the threshold, in order to get it to the general counsels, I

           13     guess, to start with, you -- as to three or four of them --

           14     I think it's four.  You're right.

           15                  On the others --

           16                  THE COURT:  And have you provided the -- what's

           17     required under it 97.1?

           18                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  I believe we have.

           19                  THE COURT:  Have you seen that, Mr. DiGregory?

           20                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  We've seen the motions,

           21     your Honor, and the attachments to the motions.

           22     Unfortunately, I don't believe that general counsel -- I

           23     know for certain the State Department did not receive

           24     anything from Mr. Lowell until yesterday; if it was mailed

           25     in the regular mail.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  THE COURT:  All right.

            2                  Well, I want a response from you on that by the

            3     31st --

            4                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.

            5                  THE COURT:  -- a week from today.

            6                  I would think you would have a hard time with

            7     one of those, since he's in the indictment.

            8                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  We've been talking about

            9     that, your Honor.

           10                  THE COURT:  The others, I don't recognize as

           11     being in the indictment, but maybe they are.  I don't know.

           12                  In any event, I'll resolve that after I review

           13     your response.

           14                  Now, that I think takes care of all of the

           15     matters I had on here.  I'm continuing to review -- I've

           16     completed some aspects, almost all aspects of the FISA

           17     review, but I have not completed my so-called quality

           18     control review, which I am in the process of doing.

           19                  I don't -- we have CIPA hearings coming up,

           20     when?

           21                  What's the next date?

           22                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  March 31st, your Honor.

           23                  THE COURT:  I may postpone that.  And I'll let

           24     you know just as soon as I can as to whether I will do so or

           25     not.

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Your Honor, just to inform

            2     you that we have our notices due on Tuesday, the Section 6

            3     notice.

            4                  THE COURT:  Well, go ahead and meet that

            5     schedule.  Whether I have a hearing on March 31st or not

            6     remains -- I have to look carefully at my schedule and what

            7     I have.

            8                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Just to inform the Court on

            9     that, your Honor, there are some backs and forths going on

           10     as to the ability to get a hold of all those issues yet,

           11     because of the motion that we've made for a more definite

           12     statement from the government, and the government's response

           13     that they need some more statements from us.

           14                  And then the quality control that the Court is

           15     entertaining has in the past, probably will in the future,

           16     provide some additional material, which will then inform

           17     that we may more CIPA material to have to seek.  So I just

           18     wanted to make sure that those dynamics were taken into

           19     consideration, as well.

           20                  THE COURT:  All right.  Well, It may.  I

           21     wouldn't get your hopes up.

           22                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  In which direction?  Either

           23     that we are going to be here, or we aren't go being here?

           24                  THE COURT:  Oh, no, I meant that the quality

           25     control --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Oh.

            2                  THE COURT:  -- would produce anything.

            3                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Oh.  Well, it --

            4                  THE COURT:  I do think --

            5                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- may not, but --

            6                  THE COURT:  -- that it's very likely that I

            7     will have to postpone the 31st.  But I'm sorry, I cannot

            8     tell you for certain right now.  I have a trial on underway.

            9     I have another trial about to begin.

           10                  And as soon as I can deal with those matters, I

           11     am going to -- I will let you know by Monday, by Monday

           12     afternoon.  I'll enter an order dealing with the 31st.

           13                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Thank you.

           14                  THE COURT:  If I don't enter an order, it will

           15     go forward as scheduled.

           16                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Within that quality control

           17     issue, your Honor, I think you segregated out the

           18     consideration we had made of what I guess is easily

           19     described as Item U, which was the totality of any

           20     conversations between the codefendants.  And I thought I

           21     would use the occasion to remind the Court, please.

           22                  THE COURT:  All right.

           23                  I thank counsel for your cooperation.

           24                  Anything further.

           25                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  One other.  And I'm sorry,

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1     but you have asked me, and I take it upon myself even when

            2     you haven't, to inquire of the Court to inquire of the

            3     government of something you asked in September, which is:

            4     Where are they along the course of having the various

            5     agencies to classify the material and discovery and the

            6     pertinent aspects of that?

            7                  That makes a lot of things easier thereafter.

            8     And given that you have asked them to light a fire, are we

            9     in embers?

           10                  Are we smoldering?

           11                  Is there any smoke rising?

           12                  Where are we?

           13                  THE COURT:  All right.

           14                  Well, I'm not going to do that this afternoon.

           15     But advise me on the 31st, either in writing in what you

           16     file, or if we have the CIPA 6 hearing, be prepared to do

           17     it.

           18                  But I do want to know.  And obviously, that's

           19     relevant to know for the CIPA 6 and CIPA matters, because it

           20     might obviate some of these.

           21                  Suffice it to say that effort remains underway;

           22     is that right, Mr. DiGregory?

           23                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Yes, sir.

           24                  THE COURT:  Anything further today from the

           25     government?

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  No, your Honor.

            2                  THE COURT:  Mr. Nassikas, from you?

            3                  ATTORNEY NASSIKAS:  Your Honor, briefly on the

            4     Section 6(c) motion, that I believe you indicated you were

            5     going to decide on the papers, but that still remains under

            6     seal.

            7                  And the hope that was -- for two months now,

            8     we've been asked (sic) Ms. Gunning to press the government

            9     to unseal our 6(c) motion.  We are not aware of any basis to

           10     keep it under seal, your Honor, any further.

           11                  THE COURT:  Well, is it classified?

           12                  Well, I'll look at it.  But if it relates to

           13     grand jury materials or anything of that sort, that may be

           14     another matter.  I'll look at it, and we'll see if it should

           15     be under seal or not.

           16                  Do you have a view about that, Mr. DiGregory?

           17                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  We would just like the

           18     opportunity to review it, your Honor.

           19                  THE COURT:  All right.

           20                  Well, you should do that promptly.  And I'll

           21     ask Ms. Gunning next week whether there is any

           22     classification problem with respect to that.

           23                  That would be -- here it would be number --

           24     would it be Number 10 or 3, 4 and 5?  Or Four, Five and Six?

           25                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Number --

                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR

            1                  ATTORNEY DIGREGORY:  Four, Five and Six.

            2                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- 4, 5 and 6, your Honor,

            3     show cause --

            4                  THE COURT:  All right --

            5                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  -- dismiss with --

            6                  THE COURT:  -- that one.

            7                  ATTORNEY LOWELL:  Thank you, your Honor.

            8                  THE COURT:  All right.

            9                  So the parties may look at that, and advise the

           10     Court.  I'll look at it, as well.

           11                  All right.  I thank counsel for your

           12     cooperation.  I look forward to receiving these further

           13     memoranda.  Court stands in recess.

           14                  (Court recessed at 4:12 p.m.)


           16                                  ---










                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR


            2                        CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER



            5                  I, MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, an Official Court

            6     Reporter for the United States District Court, in the

            7     Eastern District of Virginia, Alexandria Division, do hereby

            8     certify that I reported by machine shorthand, in my official

            9     capacity, the proceedings had upon the motions hearing in

           10     the case of UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. STEVEN J. ROSEN,

           11     KEITH WEISSMAN


           13                  I further certify that I was authorized and did

           14     report by stenotype the proceedings in said motions hearing,

           15     and that the foregoing pages, numbered 1 to 113, inclusive,

           16     constitute the official transcript of said proceedings as

           17     taken from my machine shorthand notes.


           19                  IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereto subscribed my

           20     name this        day of                    , 2006.



           23                              Michael A. Rodriquez, RPR/CM/RMR
                                                Official Court Reporter


                                MICHAEL A. RODRIQUEZ, RPR/CM/RMR